Author Topic: RR on BBW  (Read 46058 times)

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elewis023

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2011, 11:35:31 AM »
Here is my rough understanding of the offensive exceptions... comments, ideas for enhancements

Looks good, but you just need to add the 7 yard zone on the LOS.


Offline fencewire

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2011, 02:16:23 PM »
yup, read it, but didn't process it... version 2..

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« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 02:19:11 PM by fencewire »

El Macman

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2011, 04:12:06 PM »
yup, read it, but didn't process it... version 2..

Seems accurate enough for Team A (although, if this was mine, I'd throw in that these folks may "block below the waist (unless in a combination block with a teammate blocking above the waist)."

How about a diagram for Team B?


Offline fencewire

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2011, 05:51:53 PM »
Thanks...

How about a general disclaimer that this is in lieu of any other blocking rules that might be violated during the play??

I will get to Team B tomorrow...

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2011, 07:26:49 PM »
Thanks...

How about a general disclaimer that this is in lieu of any other blocking rules that might be violated during the play??

I will get to Team B tomorrow...

I like it the way you have it.

Offline fencewire

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2011, 10:16:27 AM »
The defense....   

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Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2011, 10:41:04 AM »
The defense would have been a lot easier to comprehend if they just said any defensive player within 3 yards of the line of scrimmage at the snap may block below the waist until the ball leaves the blocking zone.


elewis023

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2011, 11:37:46 AM »
The defense would have been a lot easier to comprehend if they just said any defensive player within 3 yards of the line of scrimmage at the snap may block below the waist until the ball leaves the blocking zone.

Agreed.

JKS

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2011, 05:19:07 PM »
Does anyone happen to have a new diagram for blocking below the waist as it pertains to the new rules and language?

Take any formation and then draw a vertical line N/S through any restricted player.  If they are on the left side of the formation, they can block left of the line but not right and vice versa.  That is the diagram I have seen.

El Macman

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2011, 07:26:24 AM »
The defense....  

That appears to be accurate, based on what we know today. That being the case, the scenarios that, I think, need specific interpretation or clarification are:

Situation 1
1/10, 50. A11, 5 yards behind the NZ, takes a direct snap and looks for receivers downfield. Then:

a) before A11 is able to throw a pass, B55 dives and contacts A11 at the knees, where A11 falls to the ground with the ball, or
b) just before A11 releases a pass that A88 catches and runs out of bounds at the B-45, B55 dives and contacts A11 at the knees, or
c) just after A11 releases a pass that A88 catches and runs out of bounds at the B-45, B55 dives and contacts A11 at the knees. (Note: The timing of this contact is such that, if above the waist and below the head, and not with the defender's helmet, would NOT be ruled roughing the passer).

Situation 2
1/10, 50. A11 receives a hand-to-hand snap, and, without stepping in any direction, looks to his left to throw a pass. Then;
a) just after he releases a pass that A88 catches and runs out of bounds at the B-45, but before the pass leaves the blocking zone, B55 (positioned within the blocking zone at the snap) dives and contacts A11 at the knees, or
b) just after he releases a pass that A88 catches and runs out of bounds at the B-45, but after the pass leaves the blocking zone, B55 (positioned within the blocking zone at the snap) dives and contacts A11 at the knees.

Please, Mr Redding, please address these scenarios.


Another that I think we already know the answer to, but is, nonetheless, troubling and problematic:
Situation 2
1/10, 50. At the snap from the left inbounds line, A59 is the snapper and middle lineman. After the snap, A59 and A66 lead blocking for ball-carrier A33. Near the right 9-yard mark, A59 blocks B22 at the knees. Simultaneously, B99 blocks A66 at the knees. A33 runs out of bounds at the right sideline at the B-45. B22 incurs a catastrophic career-ending knee injury.  

Everybody seems to be hot and bothered about the marginally modified BBW rules for Team A, when, in fact, the dramatically changed BBW rules for Team B are the ones that need some interpretation plays from RR. The Team A changes boil down to everybody knowing (at a minimum) the number of their key. If a BBW occurs that isn't clearly legal, the covering official will need to throw his flag, and then, if he doesn't know, find out where the blocker came from. We may have a few wave-offs - that's OK and easy enough. But, how tough is it going to be if Rs have to judge low contact on a ball-carrier/passer, unless Rs are told that anything in question is a foul, and they'll get 100% support from their coordinators and commissioners?

I may be worrying about something that won't be an issue. But I don't think so.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:23:07 PM by El Macman »

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2011, 07:32:06 PM »
I think maybe were getting confused with this BBW and what you describe as an attempted tackle of a ball carrier/potential passer, (not a block below the waist).  I think we treat it just as any contact with a QB attempting a pass, ie if defender could have held up after pass was released that's RTP, if not and contact was unavoidable (not to the helmet) then we have nothing.

Best regards,

Brad

El Macman

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2011, 09:21:36 PM »
I think maybe were getting confused with this BBW and what you describe as an attempted tackle of a ball carrier/potential passer, (not a block below the waist).  I think we treat it just as any contact with a QB attempting a pass, ie if defender could have held up after pass was released that's RTP, if not and contact was unavoidable (not to the helmet) then we have nothing.

Best regards,

Brad

For Situation 1a and 1b, that's right - just a block on the ball-carrier. But, for 1c, after he releases the ball on a pass, the ball carrier is no longer a ball carrier - he is a passer. BBW by Team B is prohibited once the ball leaves the blocking zone, except against the ball carrier - but there is no exception for blocks against the passer; thus 1c appears to be an illegal block below the waist. For situation 2a, the ball is still in the blocking zone, and the block is within the blocking zone (although I failed to specify that B55 was in the blocking zone at the snap - I have gone back and edited it to indicate such); thus, legal, as we know the new rule today. But, like 1c, 2b would appear to me to be an illegal block below the waist.
Somebody show me something in writing from RR that says I'm wrong.

Imagine a referee having to decide that the low block occurred before or after the pass was released.



JKS

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2011, 09:53:00 PM »
So if I am reading the diagram correctly an OLB in the 3-4 can be six yards away from the ball horizontally and 3 yards vertically and then at the snap crash into the blocking zone and block below the waist?  In other words he doesn't have to be in the tackle box at the snap to enter the box and BBW so long as he is within 3 yards of the ball and the tackle box still exists.  Am I right?

JKS

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2011, 09:58:12 PM »
Can a cornerback block below the waist within 3 yards of the ball?  The phrase that is confusing me is "in that area".  Does that mean the 10 X 6 blocking zone or the 10 X 6 blocking zone extended sideline to sideline?  In the comments it says effectively linemen and linebackers, but if the zone extends sideline to sideline what about corners?  Therefore, which "area" are they talking about?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 10:12:00 PM by Umpaloopa »

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2011, 10:13:09 PM »
Can a cornerback block below the waist within 3 yards of the ball?

It doesn't matter what you call the defensive player, if he's in the blocking zone at the snap, he can block below the waist in the blocking zone until the ball leaves the blocking zone.

Brad

El Macman

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2011, 10:51:13 PM »
So if I am reading the diagram correctly an OLB in the 3-4 can be six yards away from the ball horizontally and 3 yards vertically and then at the snap crash into the blocking zone and block below the waist?  In other words he doesn't have to be in the tackle box at the snap to enter the box and BBW so long as he is within 3 yards of the ball and the tackle box still exists.  Am I right?

Not quite correct. To be able to BBW, a B player must be in the Blocking Zone extended to the sidelines at the snap, and he must execute the block within the Blocking Zone extended to the sidelines, and before the ball leaves the 6'x10' Blocking zone. But even then, he can't block an eligible opponent below the waist until a legal forward pass is no longer possible by rule, and he can't block an opponent in position to receive a backward pass below the waist behind the NZ.

A B player outside the Blocking Zone extended to the sidelines at the snap simply may not block below the waist anywhere, anytime - period.

El Macman

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2011, 10:54:58 PM »
Can a cornerback block below the waist within 3 yards of the ball?  The phrase that is confusing me is "in that area".  Does that mean the 10 X 6 blocking zone or the 10 X 6 blocking zone extended sideline to sideline?  In the comments it says effectively linemen and linebackers, but if the zone extends sideline to sideline what about corners?  Therefore, which "area" are they talking about?

The "area" to which RR refers is the Blocking Zone extended to the sidelines. A B player in that area at the snap may BBW, but only in that area, and only until the ball leaves the 6'x10' Blocking Zone. That ain't gonna be long, except on dive type plays, QB sneaks, etc.

JKS

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2011, 11:13:37 PM »
So a player positioned 10 yards from the ball and 2 yards from the LOS (ie. a cornerback) could BBW since he is in the zone extended.  However, he is restricted from doing so

(a) against an eligible receiver
(b) on sweeps against a lead blocker since the ball has left the 10 X 6 area

Is that correct?

The player positioned in the blocking zone extended, then, can come down the line and BBW so long as the ball is in the 10 X 6 area say on an option play or a trap.  The part I am having trouble with is why extend the blocking zone sideline to sideline?  It seems almost impossible for a player to BBW from the extended area except for maybe an OLB who is just outside the original blocking zone.  

It would have been easier to administer and explain (in my opinion) just to say any Team B player outside the the blocking zone may not BBW and players inside the zone at the snap may do so only until the zone disintegrates.  

Excuse my ignorance on this but I am trying to get a handle on this so I can explain it to coaches.   They are wanting to know if their OLB's in a 3-4 defense can crash in at the snap and scoop the linemen which apparently they can.  They are also wanting to know why their CB's have to meet pulling guards and tackles high while the OL can block them low.  I guess because, "them's the rules.".
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 11:34:54 PM by Umpaloopa »

El Macman

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2011, 07:11:57 AM »
So a player positioned 10 yards from the ball and 2 yards from the LOS (ie. a cornerback) could BBW since he is in the zone extended.  However, he is restricted from doing so

(a) against an eligible receiver
(b) on sweeps against a lead blocker since the ball has left the 10 X 6 area

Is that correct? Correct.

The player positioned in the blocking zone extended, then, can come down the line and BBW so long as the ball is in the 10 X 6 area say on an option play or a trap.  The part I am having trouble with is why extend the blocking zone sideline to sideline?  It seems almost impossible for a player to BBW from the extended area except for maybe an OLB who is just outside the original blocking zone.  I don't know the rationale. Hopefully, this will get more explanation in the coming months.

It would have been easier to administer and explain (in my opinion) just to say any Team B player outside the the blocking zone may not BBW and players inside the zone at the snap may do so only until the zone disintegrates.  

Excuse my ignorance on this but I am trying to get a handle on this so I can explain it to coaches.   They are wanting to know if their OLB's in a 3-4 defense can crash in at the snap and scoop the linemen which apparently they can.  They are also wanting to know why their CB's have to meet pulling guards and tackles high while the OL can block them low.  I guess because, "them's the rules.". I don't understand coaching terms like "crash" and "scoop." In rule language, those B players in the Blocking Zone extended to the sidelines (the "area") at the snap may BBW in that "area" until the ball leaves the 6'x10' Blocking Zone, except against an eligible receiver or an opponent in position to receive a backward pass behind the NZ. So, if a linebacker in the "area" can block an opposing interior lineman below the waist in the "area" before the ball leaves the BZ, then OK. For most plays, that's gonna have to be quick. Yep - them's the rules.

Fatman325

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2011, 07:18:48 AM »
What RR said at Honig's clinic was that they extended the defensive box from sideline to sideline to allow the DE who may be positioned outside the tackle/TE to be included in people who can block below the waist until the ball leaves the zone.

JKS

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2011, 01:01:45 PM »
That makes sense because like I said they are about the only ones who could possibly do it.  Thanks for all the help.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2011, 02:26:31 PM »
....But even then, he can't block an eligible opponent below the waist until a legal forward pass is no longer possible by rule, ....


But eligible receivers may be blocked below the waist in the neutral zone, unless the pass is in the air.

Best regards,

Brad

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2011, 03:35:09 PM »
Where is the prohibition of the B player (assuming he was in that belt and the ball is still in the zone) blocking an eligible receiver coming from?

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2011, 03:50:41 PM »
Where is the prohibition of the B player (assuming he was in that belt and the ball is still in the zone) blocking an eligible receiver coming from?

Andrew as I'm sure you know, they can be blocked in the neutral zone but not beyond.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: RR on BBW
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2011, 04:04:03 PM »
Andrew as I'm sure you know, they can be blocked in the neutral zone but not beyond.
In the past, yes.  But the new Rule 9-1-6 replaces current 9-1-2-e and that restriction is not in there.