2011 CFO Test

[zebra99]

During a clinic in San Antonio, forward progress for plays out of bounds was explained by Dick Honig as follows:

Excluding situations at the pylon, forward progress is where the ball crosses the sideline for airborne ball carriers/runners (whatever we are calling them this year).  For running ball carriers/runners, forward progress is the spot where the ball carrier/runner touches out of bounds (even if his/her stride carries them a yard down field (OB).  For example, A45 crosses the sideline at the A45 but first touches the ground OB at the A46 extended.  Forward progress is the A46.  I can't imagine this rule will remain this way for the reason previously stated (can the defense hit a player OB to prevent him from attaining a first down).

This is way I remember it.  Just sayin..

So at that clinic, they were saying it doesn't matter where the ball is or was, only where the runner touches OB?  Never heard of that one.

[El Macman]

So at that clinic, they were saying it doesn't matter where the ball is or was, only where the runner touches OB?  Never heard of that one.

I don't think that is what DH meant to imply, but gauging by test questions, etc., I have seen him author, that's probably what he said. He tends to use generic or colloquial terms regarding rule discussions. When called to task, I can easily see him saying, "Well, yeah, of course I meant where the ball was when he actually touched the ground out of bounds. I thought everybody understood that."

But, for me, that supports what I have been saying, i.e., the ball's position n-s (even if over "foul ground") when the ball becomes dead is the forward progress spot. But, like I said, RR's new ARs really confuse me. I could be completetley wrong, at least now, if not for the past 38 years.

But that touches on another related subject. RR's recent treatise on rule study made good points for personal, individual rule study. Thinking and writing rule-related things in your own words, for your own consumption, is certainly a good and valuable practice, as long as you understand the rules correctly. But, in my experience, when discussing rules among your peers, you must use "rule-speak" jargon. You must. To use terms like, "crackback" block, "lateral," "line of scrimmage" (in lieu of neutral zone), etc., just leads to confusion, which creates misunderstandings.
That's my opinion, for what its worth.

[zebra99]

I don't think that is what DH meant to imply, but gauging by test questions, etc., I have seen him author, that's probably what he said. He tends to use generic or colloquial terms regarding rule discussions. When called to task, I can easily see him saying, "Well, yeah, of course I meant where the ball was when he actually touched the ground out of bounds. I thought everybody understood that."

But, for me, that supports what I have been saying, i.e., the ball's position n-s (even if over "foul ground") when the ball becomes dead is the forward progress spot. But, like I said, RR's new ARs really confuse me. I could be completetley wrong, at least now, if not for the past 38 years.

But that touches on another related subject. RR's recent treatise on rule study made good points for personal, individual rule study. Thinking and writing rule-related things in your own words, for your own consumption, is certainly a good and valuable practice, as long as you understand the rules correctly. But, in my experience, when discussing rules among your peers, you must use "rule-speak" jargon. You must. To use terms like, "crackback" block, "lateral," "line of scrimmage" (in lieu of neutral zone), etc., just leads to confusion, which creates misunderstandings.
That's my opinion, for what its worth.

well put - I'm still spinning but after several 360s I've decided to stop at the same place you are.....  

Forward most point of the ball regardless of where it crossed the sideline or whether it's OB or in the field of play, when the non-airborne runner first touches OB.  So the LTG is extended OB in some situations.

[ref6983]

The correct answer to #24 is "b". The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. This is how this play has been officiated forever. Interestingly, in the past, it really wasn't right by rule. The previous rule, 4-2-4e, used the words "dives or jumps." The new book eliminates section 'e' and makes it an exception to 4-2-4d and the words "dives or jumps" have been removed.

Rule 2-27-6 defines an airborne player as one who is not touching the ground, so a player who is running does go airborne during his stride. Yes, we all know that's not what the rule means exactly, but that is what it says. Putting those two rules, 2-27-6 and 4-2-4d (exc) we really do have a rule based reason to do what we've done forever and that is put the ball where it crosses.

If we stop doing that, then I can guarantee our coaches, who also know how we've spotted the ball forever, would go nuts when we start putting the ball a yard in front of where the ball crossed.

[zebra99]

The correct answer to #24 is "b". The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. This is how this play has been officiated forever. Interestingly, in the past, it really wasn't right by rule. The previous rule, 4-2-4e, used the words "dives or jumps." The new book eliminates section 'e' and makes it an exception to 4-2-4d and the words "dives or jumps" have been removed.

Rule 2-27-6 defines an airborne player as one who is not touching the ground, so a player who is running does go airborne during his stride. Yes, we all know that's not what the rule means exactly, but that is what it says. Putting those two rules, 2-27-6 and 4-2-4d (exc) we really do have a rule based reason to do what we've done forever and that is put the ball where it crosses.

If we stop doing that, then I can guarantee our coaches, who also know how we've spotted the ball forever, would go nuts when we start putting the ball a yard in front of where the ball crossed.

oh boy - and here I thought I was going to stop spinning around on this one .....

[Diablo]

I thought of that play too - so it's back to the old "For years I thought it was this way, then a new book comes out and I'm totally messed up."  If I'm right and the wing guys have been doing it "my" way (and those I've talked to around here agree), then is this a rule change?

Here's hoping I'm wrong in the first place    ...........   but I still can't get over not hearing ANY chatter, talk, or discussion over the years about the concept of an extended LTG or dead ball spot extended when the runner goes OB, non-airborne.

This year's 4-2-4-d reads, "The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5-1-VII) (Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-IX)." 

The first sentence (in bold) has been in the rule book for years.  The Exception for an airborne ball carrier was added this year.

As with you, it's my impression that the vast majority of officials have always considered the crossing point as the dead ball (forward progress) spot for both a ball not in player possession as well as a ball in player possession.

[zebra99]

This year's 4-2-4-d reads, "The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5-1-VII) (Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-IX)."  

The first sentence (in bold) has been in the rule book for years.  The Exception for an airborne ball carrier was added this year.

As with you, it's my impression that the vast majority of officials have always considered the crossing point as the dead ball (forward progress) spot for both a ball not in player possession as well as a ball in player possession.

If it turns out we are to go with the "forward most point of the ball"; that's a big deal IMO.  I hope we get more to straighten us (maybe only me) out than just the answer to the CFO test question.  As we all have experienced, test question answers, even if from the CFO, aren't 100% reliable.  What I'd like to see is one of RR's nifty published notes in plain speak.

[El Macman]

The correct answer to #24 is "b". 

You have the answer key?

[ref6983]

You have the answer key?

No, but I do know that this is the answer.

[El Macman]

For you Diablo: The text of the exception was actually item "e." under that Article in the 2009-10 book, although RR edited it for 2011 to eliminate "...dives or jumps toward the sideline and..." (somewhat redundant and unnecessary language).


For everyone:
Now, ask yourself this question:

Why does that "exception" exist? Why do we need an exception for an airborne ball carrier if the same rule applies to a non-airborne ball carrier?

Answer: For the non-airborne BC, progress is the n-s location of the ball, even over "foul ground," when the ball is declared dead.

[Diablo]

For you Diablo: The text of the exception was actually item "e." under that Article in the 2009-10 book, although RR edited it for 2011 to eliminate "...dives or jumps toward the sideline and..." (somewhat redundant and unnecessary language).
For everyone:
Now, ask yourself this question:
Why does that "exception" exist? Why do we need an exception for an airborne ball carrier if the same rule applies to a non-airborne ball carrier?
Answer: For the non-airborne BC, progress is the n-s location of the ball, even over "foul ground," when the ball is declared dead.

You're preaching to a choir boy, Reverend.
The hard part is converting the congregation.

[zebra99]

You're preaching to a choir boy, Reverend.
The hard part is converting the congregation.

so regardless of the current debate - for those of you pushing for "forward most part of the ball regardless of where it crossed the sideline"  - honestly now - how many of you were actually calling it this way for the last, say 10-15 years?  Or, how many were calling it "where it crossed the sideline" since your Pop Warner days?  Emphasis on the "honestly now!" 

[Diablo]

so regardless of the current debate - for those of you pushing for "forward most part of the ball regardless of where it crossed the sideline"  - honestly now - how many of you were actually calling it this way for the last, say 10-15 years?  Or, how many were calling it "where it crossed the sideline" since your Pop Warner days?  Emphasis on the "honestly now!" 

"Honestly" ?!?!.......... I've been a deep judge (mostly B) throughout my collegiate career; hence, had very limited opportunity to make these calls 

However, on a couple of rare occasions, I recall observing a ball carrier extend the ball forward just as he landed OB.  Later, when I asked the calling wing if he gave the ball carrier forward progress per 4-1-2-d, they looked at me like I had 3 eyes.

[Wing4Life]

Look at a msg just sent (regarding #24) to those who have already submitted their test answers:


---------------------------------------------
From: xxx <xxx@arbitersports.com>;
Subject: Message from CFO Central Hub
Sent: Wed, Jun 8, 2011

You are receiving this email because you have taken the CFO 2011 National Rules Test recently and there has been a change to the answer key for question #24.  Upon further review it was determined that the correct answer to question #24 is selection 'B' (A,4/1,@B-38).
 
If you desire further explanation of this corrected answer you can check with your Coordinator or email Rogers Redding, National Coordinator and Secretary-Rules Editor at footballrules@ncaa.org.
 

[zebra99]

"Honestly" ?!?!.......... I've been a deep judge (mostly B) throughout my collegiate career; hence, had very limited opportunity to make these calls 

However, on a couple of rare occasions, I recall observing a ball carrier extend the ball forward just as he landed OB.  Later, when I asked the calling wing if he gave the ball carrier forward progress per 4-1-2-d, they looked at me like I had 3 eyes.

and your answer? 

[Diablo]

and your answer? 

Question 24 reads as follows:
A, 3/9 @ B-46. The ball carrier is hit on the B-39 at the sideline and falls forward and out of bounds. When the ball is declared dead in possession of runner, the ball is outside the sideline at the B-37 extended. The ball, in possession of the runner, crossed the sideline on the B-38.
A. A, 4/2 @ B-39
B. A, 4/1 @ B-38
C. A, 1/10 @ B-37

If B is the correct answer, the author/s intend for the Exception in 4-2-4-d to be the relevant rule passage.  If that is the case, they intend for the ball carrier to be airborne.  Perhaps "ball carrier is hit ...  and falls forward and out of bounds" is meant to convey airborne status to the ball carrier.  That intention is not clear to me.  It would be less ambiguous if they used the standard phrases "becomes airborne" or "blocked into the air".

That said, the uncertainty surrounding question 24 does not distract from the existence of a rule (4-2-4-d sans the Exception) which awards forward progress to a grounded ball carrier who goes OB.

[El Macman]

Well, this doesn't really address the fundamental question, because the test question may imply that the BC is airborne when he "...falls forward out of bounds." If that is the implication, then yes, B is the answer.

Suppose the question was edited to read, "4/10, B-40. The ball carrier runs out of bounds untouched (or is hit, but maintains his balance, and runs out of bounds) at the B-31, with the ball in his outstretched arm at the B-30 (extended) when he first touches the ground out of bounds. The ball crossed the sideline at the B-30 1/2."

[Hursk]

so regardless of the current debate - for those of you pushing for "forward most part of the ball regardless of where it crossed the sideline"  - honestly now Smiley  - how many of you were actually calling it this way for the last, say 10-15 years?  Or, how many were calling it "where it crossed the sideline" since your Pop Warner days?  Emphasis on the "honestly now!"

Confession: been calling it where it crossed the sideline forever, figuring that's as far as he had advanced "in the field of play."

[zebra99]

Well, this doesn't really address the fundamental question, because the test question may imply that the BC is airborne when he "...falls forward out of bounds." If that is the implication, then yes, B is the answer.

Suppose the question was edited to read, "4/10, B-40. The ball carrier runs out of bounds untouched (or is hit, but maintains his balance, and runs out of bounds) at the B-31, with the ball in his outstretched arm at the B-30 (extended) when he first touches the ground out of bounds. The ball crossed the sideline at the B-30 1/2."

my answer on the field over the last 40 years?  It's at the B30 1/2.  My answer now?  The same, unless we get something in writing (other than a test answer) from RR specifically on point, and we undergo training to adapt to a whole new way of officiating the sideline.

[Etref]

[Confession: been calling it where it crossed the sideline forever, figuring that's as far as he had advanced "in the field of play."

At least we have been calling it where we think he crossed the sideline because we probably never got it exact.

[zebra99]

At least we have been calling it where we think he crossed the sideline because we probably never got it exact.

Actually I think we've been calling it where we think the ball crossed the sideline in his possession.  Emphasis on the second "think."

[El Macman]

I'll ask the question again, and challenge anyone (except Diablo) to answer.

Why is there an "exception" for an airborne ball carrier?

If what y'all believe is true, no exception is needed. The ball would always be placed where it crossed the sideline, regardless of the BC's orientation or relation to the ground. So an exception for an airborne BC wouldn't be needed.

Please explain the exception.

[zebra99]

I'll ask the question again, and challenge anyone (except Diablo) to answer.

Why is there an "exception" for an airborne ball carrier?

If what y'all believe is true, no exception is needed. The ball would always be placed where it crossed the sideline, regardless of the BC's orientation or relation to the ground. So an exception for an airborne BC wouldn't be needed.

Please explain the exception.

I've learned long ago never to engage in explaining the unexplainable, especially when it comes to the verbiage of the Rule Book! 

[ref6983]

I'll ask the question again, and challenge anyone (except Diablo) to answer.

Why is there an "exception" for an airborne ball carrier?

If what y'all believe is true, no exception is needed. The ball would always be placed where it crossed the sideline, regardless of the BC's orientation or relation to the ground. So an exception for an airborne BC wouldn't be needed.

Please explain the exception.

Sometimes the player steps out of bounds and the ball has never crossed the sideline. The ball is then placed at the most forward point of the ball.

[El Macman]

Sometimes the player steps out of bounds and the ball has never crossed the sideline. The ball is then placed at the most forward point of the ball.

Yes, but what does that have to do with the exception for an airborne player?

The ball being placed at the spot where it crosses the sideline is an exception for an airborne player. To be an exception, then it must be different from the fundamental rule. So, what's the fundamental rule, to which it is an exception?