Scrimmage kick play

[Bob M.]

This question came from one of the NFL's pre-season tests. I was asked by one of their officials how we would handle it under Fed  and NCAA rules. What would you answer for NCAA?

PLAY: A 4/4 at B's 44....Kicker A1's punt rolls to B's 5 where A2 muffs the ball to B's 2. B1 picks up the ball and then begins to run but is hit and fumbles it back into B's EZ where A5 falls on it. During the kick, B3 blocked A4 low at B's 11. RULING: ??

[VaBackJudge]

But... Isn't an illegal block below the waist also a personal foul? NCAA 9-1-6 (2011 rulebook)

[cougar729]

NCAA-Wouldn't A accept the foul for B's low block, 15 yards from the previous spot and 1st down for Team A?

NFHS-If A accepts the foul why is it still B's ball?  Didnt the foul occur during the kick?  loose ball would go back to previous spot for enforcement?

[RicFlairWoo]

Touchdown for A.  Enforcement of B's 15 yard penalty on try or succeeding KO.

[Atlanta Blue]

NFHS-If A accepts the foul why is it still B's ball?  Didnt the foul occur during the kick?  loose ball would go back to previous spot for enforcement?

Normally, the loose ball would not be the issue, it would be a post scrimmage kick enforcement from the end of the kick.

However, this play does not meet the PSK qualifications, because A/K would be the next to put the ball in play.  Therefore, in this case, it would be a previous spot enforcement.

SO:  The result of the play was a TD by K.  R would take the spot of first touching to negate the TD, however, K will accept the penalty by R, which negates R's right to the spot of first touching.  Since R's foul does not qualify for PSK enforcement, enforce from the previous spot, first and ten for A from R's 34.

[Kalle]

But... Isn't an illegal block below the waist also a personal foul? NCAA 9-1-6 (2011 rulebook)

Yes it is. Team A is in legal possession of the ball at the end of the down, so PSK does not apply. Enforce the penalty from the previous spot, 1st and 10 for team A at B-29, just like cougar said.

[El Macman]

The foul is by the opponent of the scoring team, and is a personal foul. Since personal fouls may be enforced on the try or at the succeeding kickoff, the offended team will accept the penalty. When there is an accepted penalty (by either team) the illegal touching privilege is canceled.
TD for A, and A can elect to enforce the penalty on the try or at the kickoff.

[Kalle]

The foul is by the opponent of the scoring team, and is a personal foul. Since personal fouls may be enforced on the try or at the succeeding kickoff, the offended team will accept the penalty. When there is an accepted penalty (by either team) the illegal touching privilege is canceled.
TD for A, and A can elect to enforce the penalty on the try or at the kickoff.

You are of course absolutely correct, silly me...

[cmathews]

If the low block occured during B's run, as opposed to during the kick,  would 5-2-4 come into play?  IE would the team in possession then keep the ball if the penalty were accepted?  Or would the pf during a scoring down supercede??

[El Macman]

If the low block occured during B's run, as opposed to during the kick,  would 5-2-4 come into play?  IE would the team in possession then keep the ball if the penalty were accepted?  Or would the pf during a scoring down supercede??

On a scoring play, it doesn't matter when the foul by the opponent occurred. If it is a personal foul (or unsportsmanlike conduct), it may be enforced on the try or the succeeding kickoff.
Technically, the scoring team could decline the penalty, in which case B could/would invoke the illegal touching privilege. But everybody on Team A would lose their jobs and scholarships if they did.

On a non-scoring play, then, yes, it would make a difference as to when the foul occured as to who gets the ball when a penalty is accepted.

[jg-me]

In cmathews play, if B's foul was something other than PF or USC, the penalty could be enforced under 5-2-4 due to the exception for TD plays with an illegal touch. B would either get the ball at the IT spot or where the penalty leaves it, A's choice.

[Diablo]

If the low block occured during B's run, as opposed to during the kick,  would 5-2-4 come into play?  IE would the team in possession then keep the ball if the penalty were accepted?  Or would the pf during a scoring down supercede??

10-2-5-a (penalty enforcement for PFs committed by the opponent during a TD down) is given as an exception at the end of 5-2-4.  I'm thinking that tells us application of 10-2-5-a is immune from 5-2-4 considerations.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I took the NFL test play verbatim, and in retrospect I wish I had changed the foul to one not of the personal foul variety. Suppose it was holding. What I was intending to get at was: If the foul is accepted by A so that B could not exercise its IT rights, would it qualify for PSK enforcement? In other words, absent the foul, who would next be entitled to put the ball in play? Do you exclude the illegal touch from that determination? Absent the foul alone, B would next put the ball in play (because of the IT), i.e. PSK. Excluding the foul and the IT, A would next put the ball in play, i.e. previous spot. What's the right way to handle this? Or does the issue of 'declined by rule' non-PF/USC fouls during a scoring play make the question moot?

[Kalle]

In a play that ends in a TD the question is moot, as either the penalty is declined by rule (and team B can have the IT privilege) or it is enforced on a kickoff (PF/USC).

If the play does not end in a TD the PSKE requirements are not all met, as team A is in legal team possession when the down ends (although this possession is temporary due to IT). So the foul would be enforced from the previous spot

[frank.malone]

Is A really in legal team possession?. I don't think so, team A has committed a violation and therefore it is not in legal possession. But, How can we treat this issue if the end of the play is not in the end-zone but in A's possession? All PKSE, are accomplished, but A has the ball. A 1st and goal?

[Kalle]

Is A really in legal team possession?. I don't think so, team A has committed a violation and therefore it is not in legal possession.

If team B had not touched the ball after the illegal touching, you would be right. But, as they have, team A players then had the legal right to catch or recover any loose ball, thus team A is in legal team possession at the end of the down. See rule 2-4-1-c.

The same applies if team B fouls during the kick, team A illegally touches the ball, team B touches the ball (and does not recover it), and team A recovers the ball. See play #10 in http://romgilbert.us/p-1004.htm

Motto for team B: if you foul during the kick, don't let team A get the ball back, even if there's IT by team A.

[Diablo]

Note, under 10-2-3 Postscrimmage Kick Enforcement

2010:  Team A is not in legal possession when the ball is declared dead.
2011:  Team B will next put the ball in play.

Significance? 

[Kalle]

Missed that change, and as there's no other reason to change the wording than to change this particular situation, I think it is a rule change (hate these hidden changes). Thus, next season, PSKE applies even after team B loses team possession if there is an IT.

[Kalle]

Seems that Rom disagrees with me, as his new Mini Missive on PSK has no change for this play. http://romgilbert.us/p-1106.htm plays #7 and #8.