6-3-11 Illegal touch in B Endzone

[bossman72]

This has probably already been caught and discussed, but has anyone noticed the contradictions between 6-3-11 and it's corresponding AR's?  Redding slipped in another hidden change (some extra words) into that rule.

ARTICLE 11. If a scrimmage kick untouched by Team B after crossing the
neutral zone is batted in Team B’s end zone by a player of Team A, it is a
violation for illegal touching (Rule 6-3-2). This is a special case of illegal
touching: Team B’s privilege for this violation is not canceled by an accepted
penalty. It is canceled by offsetting fouls (Rule 6-3-2-b). The spot of the
violation is Team B’s 20-yard line, which is the postscrimmage kick spot for
fouls by Team B (Rule 2-25-11).The B-20 may also be a penalty enforcement
spot for fouls by Team A during the kick play (Rules 6-3-13 and 10-2-4) (A.R.
6-3-11-I-III and A.R 2-12-2-I).


Then, we have the AR's:

II. Team A snaps at the 50-yard line and punts. The kick is untouched
beyond the neutral zone when A88 reaches across Team B’s goal line
and bats the ball back into the field of play. B22 recovers at the B-2 and
advances to the B-12 where A66 tackles him by pulling his facemask.
RULING: Team B may accept the penalty, which cancels the illegal
touching privilege, and have first and 10 at the B-27.

III. Team A snaps at the 50-yard line and punts. The kick is untouched
beyond the neutral zone when A88 reaches across Team B’s goal line
and bats the ball back into the field of play. B22 muffs the ball at the B-2
and A43 recovers it at the B-6. While the ball is loose B77 holds A21 at
the B-10. RULING: Team A may cancel the illegal touching privilege
by accepting the holding penalty, which is enforced at the previous
spot with the down replayed. Postscrimmage kick rules do not apply to
Team B’s foul since Team A is in legal possession of the ball when it is
declared dead.



Sooooooo, how are we supposed to enforce these?

[JasonTX]

In the first play the foul occurs during a running play.  They could decline it and take it at the 20 but not sure why they would in this situation.  In the second play it doesn't qualify for PSK enforcement. 

Play situation:

A 4th - 10 at the B-40.  The ball is punted and breaks the plain of B's end zone when A22 reaches across the goalline and bats the ball backwards to the B-5.  During the kick B22 held at the B-30.  The ball is recovered by B10 and he runs out of bounds at the 50.  Team A will accept the penalty.  Ruling:  Since the bat occured in the end zone the 20 yard line becomes the postcrimmage kick spot.  The foul is in advance of that so we will penalize half the distance from the 20.  In this situation the penalty being accepted does not cancel the touching of the ball in the end zone.

[ABoselli]

I saw this as well.

It looks like they changed the interpretation (the AR was grayed out in the 2009/2010 book) for the way the rule was previously written. When they added the little blurb about how this was a special case of illegal touching that was not canceled by an accepted foul, they left the AR as it was.

It needs to be updated to match the new wording of the rule.

[SJ_2010]

For the special case of illegal touching in rule 6-3-11 to not be cancelled by an accepted penalty, the foul by either team must occur during the kick.  Fouls after the kick ends are enforced according to 3 and 1.

Play situation:

A 4/10 50. The kick is untouched beyond the neutral zone when A88 reaches across Team B’s goal line and bats the ball back into the field of play. B22 recovers at the B-2 and advances to the B-18.  During B22's run, B54 holds at the B-6.
RULING: Team A may accept the penalty, which cancels the illegal touching privilege, and B will get the ball first and 10 at the B-3.  If A declines the hold (unlikely), B could get the ball first and 10 at the B-20.

[mccormicw]

For the special case of illegal touching in rule 6-3-11 to not be cancelled by an accepted penalty, the foul by either team must occur during the kick. 

The entire topic is about illegal touching during a scrimmage kick in in B's endzone.  In my mind, this means the discussions of running plays vs kicking plays vs after the kick are not relevant.  Rule 6-3-11 clearly states this type of illegal touching (A's batting of a ball in B's endzone during a scrimmage kick) is NOT canceled by an accepted penalty.   Both ARs state the exact opposite (A's batting of a ball in B's endzone during a scrimmage kick) IS canceled by an accepted penalty). 

Obviously an oversight during the editing of the rulebook.  They can't both be right.

[JasonTX]

The entire topic is about illegal touching during a scrimmage kick in in B's endzone.  In my mind, this means the discussions of running plays vs kicking plays vs after the kick are not relevant.  Rule 6-3-11 clearly states this type of illegal touching (A's batting of a ball in B's endzone during a scrimmage kick) is NOT canceled by an accepted penalty.   Both ARs state the exact opposite (A's batting of a ball in B's endzone during a scrimmage kick) IS canceled by an accepted penalty). 

Obviously an oversight during the editing of the rulebook.  They can't both be right.

Anytime there is a conflict between the Rule and the AR, the rule becomes the gospel.  As for this situation I am not seeing any conflict.  The AR is just illustrating that since the penalty is being accepted the illegal touch is cancelled.  In this situation that is obvious because you cannot have both since the foul was during a running play.  If the foul would have been during the kick, then that would be a situation in which you could take both the penalty and the 'special' illegal touch.

Why is this 'special'?  Well, in the cases where the illegal touch occurs outside of the end zone, an accepted penalty would cancel the illegal touch.  An illegal touch spot is not a postcrimmage kick spot (unless that is also the same spot the kick ends) so in order to accept a penalty you are cancelling the illegal touch. 

[sdstripes]

The way I look at this is batting by any team in the end zone is an illegal bat.  You have to touch to bat so it's both.  Kind of like a defender can commit pass intereference by holding a receiver.

[Andrew McCarthy]

The way I look at this is batting by any team in the end zone is an illegal bat.

Aren't there exceptions to that rule?

[bossman72]

Ok, so basically we'll have to ignore the AR's for this year.

[JasonTX]

Ok, so basically we'll have to ignore the AR's for this year.

I'm confused on how we would be ignoring an AR.  In both the AR's you posted, neither of them are in conflict with the way the rule is written.  Those AR's work perfectly according to rule for that particular play situation.  Neither of those plays has a foul that occurs during the kick.  You have to have a foul that happens during the kick in order for the rule to be in effect.

[copedaddy]

This is the sticking point for me: This is a special case of illegal
touching: Team B’s privilege for this violation is not canceled by an accepted
penalty. It is canceled by offsetting fouls (Rule 6-3-2-b). Seems that this priviledge is different than illegal touching in the field of play. I don't think the status of the ball, kick or run matters. IMO

[JasonTX]

This is the sticking point for me: This is a special case of illegal
touching: Team B’s privilege for this violation is not canceled by an accepted
penalty. It is canceled by offsetting fouls (Rule 6-3-2-b). Seems that this priviledge is different than illegal touching in the field of play. I don't think the status of the ball, kick or run matters. IMO

It is different.  What matters is when the foul occurs.  If the foul occurs during the kick, then the 20 yard line is the basic spot because we are not ignoring the touching in the end zone and it doesn't go away with an accepted penalty.

If the foul occurs during the return, the 20 yard line is no longer an option because with a running play the end of the related run is the basic spot.  They could decline a foul during a running play and go to the 20 if that is their best option.

[copedaddy]

The B-20 may also be a penalty enforcement
spot for fouls by Team A during the kick play
To me this means the play during the kick. It does not specify before or after the kick ends. Blocking below the waist is not allowed during a kick play, not just during the kick, I see it the same way. This is what makes it special.

[Diablo]

For many years, 6-3-11 was listed as an exception at the end of 6-3-2-b.  It was removed from the 2009-10 rule book and reappears this year.  I think that aspect, plus the rewording of 6-3-11 in both 2009 & 2011, have led to confusion.

I believe the exception to 6-3-2-b is meant to apply for two types of fouls, which occur only during a kick play: 1) Team B fouls which penalties are processed through PSK enforcement with the B-20 as the basic spot and 2) Team A fouls during the kick play which are enforced at the B-20.  The exception does not apply to live-ball fouls which occur after the kick play, i.e. during a subsequent running play.  Penalty enforcement for those fouls is governed by 5-2-4.   

[Robert Lewis]

The B-20 may also be a penalty enforcement
spot for fouls by Team A during the kick play
To me this means the play during the kick. It does not specify before or after the kick ends. Blocking below the waist is not allowed during a kick play, not just during the kick, I see it the same way. This is what makes it special.

By definition, "during the kick play" means "before the kick ends".

Blocking below the waist is not allowed on scrimmage downs that include a kick, not just during the kick play. So your statement above is not completely true, and is not a good analogy for your argument.

I think we all know that a down may contain more than one type of play, and the penalty enforcement depends upon the play it occurred in.

If Team A commits an illegal touching violation in Team B's end zone and then fouls during the return they have not fouled during the kick play, they have fouled during a running play following a change of possession. The penalty for that foul will be enforced according to the enforcement rules for a running play and not under the provisions of 6-3-11.

If Team A commits an illegal touching violation in Team B's end zone and Team A fouls during the kick play (by definition, before the kick ends) that foul may be penalized from the 20 yard line using 6-3-11, assuming other conditions are met.

[Andrew McCarthy]

If Team A commits an illegal touching violation in Team B's end zone and then fouls during the return they have not fouled during the kick play, they have fouled during a running play following a change of possession. The penalty for that foul will be enforced according to the enforcement rules for a running play and not under the provisions of 6-3-11.

So what is the significance of the touching violation not being cancelled by that accepted penalty?

[JasonTX]

So what is the significance of the touching violation not being cancelled by that accepted penalty?

As we know batting the ball in any direction is a foul, but in the case of batting the kick out it is not a foul.  We are not flagging it but we are also not ignoring it.  This is why it's a special case of touching.  I guess you can consider it a trade-off.  By not penalizing them for batting, the trade is that we won't ignore it with an accepted penalty.

[Robert Lewis]

So what is the significance of the touching violation not being cancelled by that accepted penalty?

Depending on the circumstances, Team B could elect to decline the penalty and take the ball at the 20 yard line, but they cannot "tack on" the penalty for a Team A foul that occurred after the kick ended from the 20 yard line. That penalty could only be enforced from the end of the run.


These examples illustrate the application of 6-3-11:

http://romgilbert.us/p-1109.htm

Compare play #1 with play #5. In play #1, the Team A foul occurs during the kick play. In play #5, the foul occurs during the return.

[Andrew McCarthy]

I guess my confusion is that the rule says... This is a special case of illegal touching: Team B’s privilege for this violation is not canceled by an accepted penalty.

It doesn't say anything about that only applying to a penalty during the kick play.

[Kalle]

I guess my confusion is that the rule says... This is a special case of illegal touching: Team B’s privilege for this violation is not canceled by an accepted penalty.

It doesn't say anything about that only applying to a penalty during the kick play.

I think it is just sloppy writing of the new wording. If you look at the 6-3-11 it then goes on to talk only about fouls during the kick play, so I think it is best to infer that the wording only applies to those fouls.

[El Macman]

Weighing in late, but in 100% support of JasonTX.

Quoting CopeDaddy:
"The B-20 may also be a penalty enforcement spot for fouls by Team A during the kick play
To me this means the play during the kick. It does not specify before or after the kick ends. Blocking below the waist is not allowed during a kick play, not just during the kick, I see it the same way. This is what makes it special."

C-daddy - the rule says it: "...during the kick play..." By definition, a scrimmage kick 'play' is from snap until the ball comes into possession (or it - the kicked ball - is declared dead). Once the ball is in possession, the kick 'play' (but not the whole down) is over, and penalty enforcement obeys Basic Spot enforcement rules for fouls during running plays thereafter. So, fouls before the runback and during the runback are very different, as JasonTX pointed out.

As I once heard RR say, this is one time when a team can have their cake and eat it too. They can elect the illegal touch/bat which effectively yields a touchback as well as makes the end of the kick the B-20. So, PSK fouls are enforced related to the B-20, and qualifying A fouls can be added to the B-20 (as the "spot where the dead-ball belongs to B"). Live-ball fouls that occur after the end of the kick are enforced as any running play.
As with any illegal touching situation, offsetting fouls cancel B's illegal touching privilege. The down is repeated. The exception to that is, of course, the "clean hands" situation. B can decline offsetting fouls, decline A's penalty, and then A can elect to accept or decline B's penalty, which might be a PSK foul with the B-20 as the end of the kick due to A's illegal bat/touch in B's end zone.

Easy,eh? 

[NVFOA_Ump]

As El Macman points out, it is important to clearly and consistently stress the key difference between the terms play and down, especially when we have a kicking play which is a part of a kicking down.  It gets confusing if we don't keep those different terms in mind, and leads to errors in penalty enforcement if we don't understand the difference.