6-1-6, 6-1-8, and legal possession

[CenTexTM]

I have a question regarding a play situation on a quiz we discussed at our chapter meeting tonight.

Team A attempts an onside kick from their 40.  A68 blocks B72 at the A-47, causing B72 to touch the ball.  The ball is recovered by...

a.  Team A at the A-48.
b.  Team A at the B-47.

Accounting for the UIL exception for Team A's restraining line to be at the A-40, the question is whether the illegal touching by A is canceled by an accepted penalty for the illegal block.  The forced touching is disregarded, so when A recovers at the A-48, under 6-1-6 the ball is dead and belongs to the receiving team at the dead ball spot.  Under 6-1-8, B should then be able to have the penalty enforced from the A-48.  The consensus in our meeting was that A could not have the penalty enforced from the A-48; they could either accept the illegal touching/recovery at A-48, or have the ball re-kicked from the A-35. 

That seems wrong to me, but in looking through last year's bulletins where I thought I saw a similar play, I came across this from the Oct 21 bulletin:

Team A executes an on-side free kick at the A-30. The untouched kick is at the A-38
when A55 blocks B44 above the waist in the front at the A-41. A28 muffs the ball at
the A-39, and after it rolls to the A-41, A88 blocks B22 at the A-37. The ball is then
forced back across the A-40 and is recovered by A20 at the A-39.
 
  RULING:The block by A55 is a foul and the touching by A28 is illegal because
Team A is not eligible to touch the ball since it has not gone 10 yards nor has it been
touched by Team B. The block by A88 is legal because it occurs after the ball has
gone 10 yards. Team A is in legal possession of the ball when A20 recovers it at the
A-39. 

Team B has these options:  They may decline the penalty for the illegal block and
have the ball at the A-38 via the illegal-touching privilege, or they may cancel the
illegal- touching privilege by having Team A re-kick from the A-25 following the 5-
yard penalty for the block by A55. Note that the dead-ball spot, the A-39, is not an
enforcement spot because the ball does not belong to Team B when the down ends.
(6-1-2-g, 6-1-3, 6-1-6-a, 6-1-8 )

It seems like the key difference here is the ball has touched something beyond 10 yards, so that when team A is in possession at the end of the down, that possession is legal.  In that case, it is clear B can either accept the illegal touching or accept the penalty and have the ball re-kicked.  This is almost exactly analogous to the situation b from our meeting tonight.

I can't find a bulletin or other support for my interpretation of situation a above (that A is not in illegal possession when they recover the ball before it goes at least 10 yards beyond their restraining line, so therefore the ball belongs to team B and they can accept the penalty enforced from the dead ball spot).  The closest I can get is additional example 7 on page 26 of the new version of Demetriou's study manual.  Which is the correct interpretation?  If my understanding is correct and B gets the ball on the A-43, can someone cite chapter and verse?

Many thanks in advance.

[El Macman]

The block is illegal in both cases. The touching by B is forced, therefore ignored, in both cases. A's recovery at the A-47 in a)  is illegal touching, which is also the spot where the dead ball belongs to B, so the illegal block penalty can be enforced from the A-47 (or back at the previous spot and repeat the kickoff). A's recovery in b) is legal because it is beyond B's restraining line, so the dead ball belongs to A; thus, B's only penalty option is at the previous spot, and repeat the kickoff.
In all cases, the penalty is five-yards for an Illegal Block (signal 19).

[Hawkeye]

You are correct.

The key is whether team A is in legal possession when they gain possession of the ball.  6-1-6 is very clear, if team A gains possession of the ball it belongs to the receiving team at the spot of the recovery unless team A is in legal possession.  And team A is only in legal possession if the ball has gone ten yards or touched a team B player.

In (a) team A is not in legal possession, so the ball belongs to team B at the A-48, then you apply 6-1-8 and you can enforce any team A penalties from the A-48, here you have an illegal block, so it is enforced 5 yards from the A-48 to the A-43.

The thing that people get bogged down on here is the illegal touch, in your problem both the illegal touch and illegal recovery occur at the same spot so people have in their mind that you can't tack on from the illegal touching spot (which is true, except in this case).  In effect, team B is relinquishing the spot of illegal touching and having the penalty enforced from the spot where team B is in possession, in this play those spots happen to be the same place.

Here is an example that illustrates the point.

Play: Team A attempts an onside kick from the A-40.  A82 is offside on the kick.  A34 touches the rolling kick at the A-42 and then A82 recovers at the (a) A-45 or (b) A-49 or (c) B-48.

Ruling: In (a) team B will tack on the penalty from the spot where the ball belongs to team B, the A-45, and have the ball B 1/10 at the A-40.  In (b) and (c) team B will take the ball at the spot of the first illegal touch and take over B 1/10 at the A-42. In (b) the tack on penalty from the A-49 (where the ball belongs to team B) only gets team B to the A-44 which is worse than taking the spot of illegal touching. In (c) team A is in legal possession of the ball so team B will decline the penalty and take the ball at the spot of the first illegal touch, they may not tack on from the A-42.

So in summary, you cannot tack on from a spot of illegal touching, but you can tack on from where team B has possession of the ball.  When the spot of touching is coincident with the spot of team B possession, you may tack on from that spot.  Said another way, you can tack on from an illegal touching spot if it also is a spot of illegal recovery.

Rule references: 6-1-3-a, 6-1-6-a, 6-1-8.

[James]

great summary Hawkeye!