10 sec subtraction question

[glj383]

Would a UNC by a non player meet the criteria for a 10 second subtraction?

[El Macman]

It could, if it occurs during the dead-ball period with the clock running. But, such a foul while the ball is alive would NOT qualify for the 10-second subtraction, since it is not a foul that causes the clock to stop, in, and of, itself.

[Diablo]

Would a UNC by a non player meet the criteria for a 10 second subtraction?

What if a squad member comes onto the field of play and 1) touches a loose ball or 2) tackles the ball carrier?

Both sound like a Zap 10 to me.

[Dakota Dan]

What if a squad member comes onto the field of play and 1) touches a loose ball or 2) tackles the ball carrier?

Both sound like a Zap 10 to me.

That sounds like to me, more of a rule 3-4-3 issue more so that a ten second runoff.. but, you could invoke the 10 sec runoff with 3-4-3

[El Macman]

What if a squad member comes onto the field of play and 1) touches a loose ball or 2) tackles the ball carrier?

Both sound like a Zap 10 to me.

I was envisioning the classic one-fingered salute or the verbally expressed opinion of an opponent's lineage, or perference for a matronal partner for sexual intercourse.
As for the fouls you mentioned, I don't think so. A non-player touching a loose ball causes the ball to become dead, but it doesn't cause the clock to stop. Administration of the penalty would stop the clock, but that doesn't count. Same with interfering with a ball carrier. It doesn't stop the clock, in and of itself.
Here's where it gets sticky: A non-player that is OB touching a loose ball or ball-carrier causes the ball to become dead AND stops the clock. So those would count - yes? Should they, when the same act totally in the field of play wouldn't?
I don't know.

[Andrew McCarthy]

A non-player touching a loose ball causes the ball to become dead, but it doesn't cause the clock to stop. Administration of the penalty would stop the clock, but that doesn't count. Same with interfering with a ball carrier. It doesn't stop the clock, in and of itself.

Along those lines- does a false start cause the clock to stop or does the administration of the penalty stop the clock?

[El Macman]

Along those lines- does a false start cause the clock to stop or does the administration of the penalty stop the clock?

Yes, if the clock is running.
Any foul during a dead-ball period while the game clock is running causes the clock to stop, so any foul at that time would qualify. But, the same foul while the ball is alive may not, technically, cause the clock to stop, so such a foul at that time would not qualify.

[Andrew McCarthy]

Yes, if the clock is running.
Any foul during a dead-ball period while the game clock is running causes the clock to stop, so any foul at that time would qualify. But, the same foul while the ball is alive may not, technically, cause the clock to stop, so such a foul at that time would not qualify.

What is the rules reference that says the dead ball foul itself causes the clock to stop?

[Diablo]

I was envisioning the classic one-fingered salute or the verbally expressed opinion of an opponent's lineage, or perference for a matronal partner for sexual intercourse.
As for the fouls you mentioned, I don't think so. A non-player touching a loose ball causes the ball to become dead, but it doesn't cause the clock to stop. Administration of the penalty would stop the clock, but that doesn't count. Same with interfering with a ball carrier. It doesn't stop the clock, in and of itself.
Here's where it gets sticky: A non-player that is OB touching a loose ball or ball-carrier causes the ball to become dead AND stops the clock. So those would count - yes? Should they, when the same act totally in the field of play wouldn't?
I don't know.

Agree.  A non-player OB touching a loose ball or ball carrier would yield 10 sec subtraction.

But still not think the non-player (in the field of play) touching a loose ball or tackling the ball carrier, would elicit the option for 10 sec subtraction.  Recall one of the scenarios which appears in the category of Zap 10 fouls, per Redding's/CFO bulletin-memorandum, is "Any other foul committed with the intent of stopping the clock".  I see the inbounds non-player's acts as falling into that scenario.

As Dakota Dan pointed out, in the absence of Zap 10, those acts would qualify for 3-4-3 .   

[El Macman]

What is the rules reference that says the dead ball foul itself causes the clock to stop?

Rule reference? See if these will do.

RR Memo 3/22/11 (excerpted):

Ten Second Subtraction from the Game Clock

Here’s the new rule:
Rule 3-4-4 (New Article)
10-Second Subtraction from Game Clock
ARTICLE 4.
a. With the game clock running and less than one minute remaining in either half, if a player of either team commits a foul that causes the clock to stop, the officials may subtract 10 seconds from the game clock at the option of the offended team. The fouls that fall in this category include but are not limited to:
(1) Any foul that prevents the snap (e.g., false start, encroachment, defensive offside by contact in the neutral zone, etc.);
(2) Intentional grounding to stop the clock;
(3) Incomplete illegal forward pass;
(4) Backward pass thrown out of bounds to stop the clock;
(5) Any other foul committed with the intent of stopping the clock.
The offended team may accept the yardage penalty and decline the 10-second subtraction. If the yardage penalty is declined the 10-second subtraction is declined by rule.


Also, RR memo 10/8/11 (excerpted):

Examples: 10-Second Subtraction

The new rule regarding the 10-second subtraction from the game clock, Rule 3-4-4, introduces a number of possible new scenarios for administration of the game clock near the end of the half. Here are number of play examples of possible applications of this rule.
In each of the following plays, assume:
-The game is in the fourth quarter,
-The ball is ready for play,
-The game clock is running,
-The fouling team does not have a timeout remaining unless otherwise noted,
-And the offended team accepts both the yardage penalty and the time subtraction unless otherwise noted.

19. Second and 5 at the B-30. Ball carrier A22 is tackled at the B-28 for a two-yard gain. A few seconds after the ball is dead A78 commits a personal foul or a foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. When the officials flag this foul and stop the game clock, there are 7 seconds left.
RULING: The dead-ball foul by A78 causes the clock to stop and the 10-second subtraction applies. The game is over.
NOTE: If this happens in the second quarter the penalty will be enforced at the start of the second half.

[Hawkeye]

But, the same foul while the ball is alive may not, technically, cause the clock to stop, so such a foul at that time would not qualify.

Well, an illegal pass itself does not stop the clock, if the illegal pass is incomplete, then the incomplete pass stops the clock not the foul, however that is on the list of fouls eligible for 10 second subtraction.

[Andrew McCarthy]

Rule reference? See if these will do.

RR Memo 3/22/11 (excerpted):

....

Also, RR memo 10/8/11 (excerpted):

....

That was my point.  The fouls he says stop the clock don't really stop the clock by strict reading of the rule book even though he says they do in his memos.

By extension I would say that that if a squad member comes onto the field of play and touches a loose ball or tackles the ball carrier then those would trigger the 10-second subtraction.

[chymechowder]

Well, an illegal pass itself does not stop the clock, if the illegal pass is incomplete, then the incomplete pass stops the clock not the foul, however that is on the list of fouls eligible for 10 second subtraction.

still don't understand why they didn't specify illegal forward pass TO CONSERVE TIME as that which qualifies as a 10sec runoff.  in the forward pass section, they put a new blue highlight on the part about attempting to conserve time.

if the qb (behind the LOS) just chucks the ball away to stop the clock, that makes sense as a runoff.  but if the qb is 1 yard beyond the LOS and makes an otherwise legit pass to a receiver who happens to drop it, then that team A foul is no more clock-related than holding.

am I missing something?