SEC Championship

[NoVaBJ]

Instructional video if someone can post it: LSU's Mathieu's punt return for a touchdown (play at 6:10 to 5:48 remaining in the second quarter), followed by the slow motion, goal line angle of Mathieu flipping the ball to the Line Judge in just in advance of the goal line (replay with 1:04 remaining in the second quarter).

[CenTexTM]

On replay it was clear that he flipped the ball prior to crossing the goal line, but is this something supervisors are going to want called "correctly?" 

[Rulesman]

Simple question: Did the ball break the plane of the goal line while in possession of the runner? Me thinks not.

[dcbarisax1]

Ball clearly leaves his possession prior to crossing the GL.   

[AIAFA171]

Question to everyone ... was not the covering official with a  signal BEFORE LSU #7 actually crossed the GL ?
Maybe this - partially - created the issue.
Am I wrong ?
Ciao

[Rulesman]

Question to everyone ... was not the covering official with a  signal BEFORE LSU #7 actually crossed the GL ?
Maybe this - partially - created the issue.
Am I wrong ?
Ciao

2 wrongs do not equal 1 right, nor does one wrong justify the existence of the other wrong.

[NoVaBJ]

On replay it was clear that he flipped the ball prior to crossing the goal line, but is this something supervisors are going to want called "correctly?"

I don't work college, and the only NCAA rules games I worked were in New England prep school leagues.  But generally, my high school supervisors have been pretty big on getting plays involving the goal line correct.

[Kalle]

Question to everyone ... was not the covering official with a  signal BEFORE LSU #7 actually crossed the GL ?

In that case it should have been an inadvertent signal, 1st and goal.

[Sonofanump]

Technically with what we know, it should be 1&G at the 5.5 yard line. 

Can replay get involved with this since it is illegal imcomplete forward pass?

[Hank]

On replay it was clear that he flipped the ball prior to crossing the goal line, but is this something supervisors are going to want called "correctly?"

The replay I saw did not have the camera right on the GL.  And it looks like he steps in the end zone prior to the flip.  The ball is held back and hadn't crossed when he stepped in but I'm not sure it's flipped BEFORE it breaks the plane.  It's VERY close and likely not clear enough to overturn on IR.

Is there a replay with the camera on GL?

[Curious]

Technically with what we know, it should be 1&G at the 5.5 yard line. 

Can replay get involved with this since it is illegal imcomplete forward pass?

This was my exact question; but "Sonof" beat me to it. It LOOKED forward from the camera angle (at least the movement of the ball appeared to go from the field of play into the end zone).

[mccormicw]

5.5 sounds right to me.

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[Hank]

OK, that pic is clear.  Is there video from that angle?

5 and 1/2 sounds right.

Maybe then this kid, Mathieu, would get the talking to he so richly deserves from a coach.

Would the inadvertent signal cancel the illegal forward pass?  Ball on 1/2 1st and goal?

[mccormicw]

When does it become and inadvertent signal - When the hands start going up or when the signal is completed?  What if he catches the ball before he completes the signal.  Just sayin....

[TXMike]

The video:

http://youtu.be/Rum0C8Ocyck

[mccormicw]

What about this block?  Personal foul?  Sorry about the quality.

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[Rulesman]

...Would the inadvertent signal cancel the illegal forward pass?...

What in the world is an inadvertent signal? That sounds like something the average fan in the stands would come up with.

[TXMike]

i suspect he means the "early" TD Signal.  This play may not be a good example but what if the official had mistakenly stopped at the 5 and then gave this signal as the runner crossed the 5?

[mccormicw]

What in the world is an inadvertent signal? That sounds like something the average fan in the stands would come up with.

Live Ball Becomes Dead
ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when
an official sounds his whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals
the ball dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II and A.R. 4-2-4-I).
b. If an official sounds his whistle inadvertently or otherwise signals the ball
dead during a down (Rules 4-1-3-k and m):

Seems like giving a signal before the ball is actually dead would be inadvertent.

[Kalle]

What in the world is an inadvertent signal? That sounds like something the average fan in the stands would come up with.

An inadvertent signal that causes the ball to become dead is one of these, I think, if given before the ball is actually dead: S3, S5, S6, S7, S10.

We've had discussions as to would these actually apply, but I don't really see any other way for an official to "otherwise signal the ball dead."

[Hank]

What in the world is an inadvertent signal? That sounds like something the average fan in the stands would come up with.

Well sorry Rulesman that I'm not a Refstripes Hero!    Excuse me!  I was just using the same (admittedly) awkward terminology that Kalle had used previously in the thread.  Oh, but I suppose he's a Refstripes Hero so why bust on him?!?  Inadvertent signal, early signal, you're the expert, you tell me what to call it.

As for when it becomes an early or inadvertent signal ... I'm not sure, but there's little doubt he's signalling early.  It supports the  very different actions of the official in the  UH v SMiss game yesterday who was criticized (IMO wrongly) for waiting so long to make the call.

[Atlanta Blue]

It supports the  very different actions of the official in the  UH v SMiss game yesterday who was criticized (IMO wrongly) for waiting so long to make the call.

It was NOT a criticism, it was a queastion as to what the S was looking at that took him the extra few seconds to signal.  And yes, taking an extra second or two and getting the call right, which he did, is far better than signalling early and getting it wrong.

[CenTexTM]

Why is this an illegal forward pass rather than a fumble?  Is it a when in doubt rule?  Looking at the replay, I'm not sure that his arm actually starts forward rather than to the side.  The spin he puts on it leads it to land in advance of where it was thrown, but in the absence of a forward movement of the arm can it still be considered a forward pass?

[NVFOA_Ump]

What in the world is an inadvertent signal? That sounds like something the average fan in the stands would come up with.

I think most of us know exactly what was intended by the inadvertent signal comment.  It's a signal that is supposed to FOLLOW an action on the field that means the ball has become dead by rule, but is given early, or inadvertently.  When one of those signals is given prematurely (the TD signal is one), just as with an inadvertent whistle, the rule says that is is in fact treated exactly as if it was an inadvertent whistle.

[JasonTX]

Why is this an illegal forward pass rather than a fumble?  Is it a when in doubt rule?  Looking at the replay, I'm not sure that his arm actually starts forward rather than to the side.  The spin he puts on it leads it to land in advance of where it was thrown, but in the absence of a forward movement of the arm can it still be considered a forward pass?

For NCAA a forward pass is determined by the direction the ball travels.  Point A being the release point and Point B being where the ball first touches something.  If Point B is in advance of Point A then it is a forward pass. 

For example, Team A releases the ball in a backwards motion but the heavy winds blows the ball to land in advance of where he released it.  That would be a forward pass.  The same is true if the pass throws the ball in a forward movement but the wind blows the ball so that it lands behind the release point.  That would be a backwards pass.