Author Topic: Film from Sweden  (Read 18527 times)

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Korean_Hap

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Film from Sweden
« on: April 19, 2012, 11:42:30 AM »
Hi.

Our season started last weekend and I would like some input on a situation during our game.

http://youtu.be/dzVZvP2nh78

At 9 seconds in there is a block against black nr 30. Referee has a flag for block in back, line judge has a flag for clipping and umpire (me) has no flag on the play. What would the wise men and women of refstripes do?

Cheers
Per

El Macman

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2012, 11:53:57 AM »
Definitely not a clip, because it clearly started above the waist. Technically, maybe not even a block in the back, but I think this is one a coordinator would support a block in the back. He contacted the trunk of the body, not the shoulder. Had he hit the shoulder at that angle, I'd have gone with side block.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 11:55:46 AM »
Man, oh man. Look at that snow.   :-X
Certainly not a clip. - contact at the waist.
A sure was in 'chase mode' & highly suspect to BiB. 
My personal, initial reaction, without watching it several times and/or in slow motion: I got a BiB

7-man crew.  Nothing from S?

Just to  :sTiR:  comments on the  blocking technique, that is the head-first dive into B?
at 0:11   @A's 48-yd line at the end of the play. hmmmmmmm where is H looking?

« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 12:20:48 PM by TampaSteve »

Offline Kalle

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2012, 02:16:03 PM »
IMO that's a side block. The defender is moving east-west and the offensive player is moving north-south. Good training material, and like ElM said, it could really go either way depending on the supervisor.

Zebra221

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 02:32:40 PM »
definatly not a clip (as I'm not the first to say), but I'd support a BIB, force of first contact looks to be from behind. But I don't see why R should be throwing this, not his primary area (maybe if it's a 5 man crew) F (in 7) should be looking at this too.

As for the situation @ A-46, that sure looks like a PF, from behind and away from the play, and the player making the hit is not trying to do anything other than punish an opponent. IMO it's not Rs MC, it's U (maybe H) who should pick this up, QB is the ballcarrier and to Rs side, R should be trailing like he is (or slower) both R and U need to be more stationary, make every move count. U should slow-play this more, they might pick it up.

Offline Amir

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 04:22:03 AM »
That hit looks like it's to the hip, not the back. Not a foul in my book.
Now look, you know different people think about life in different ways. Lawyers think life is a big court room, doctors probably think life is like a big operation, and bus drivers think life is... er... a big bus I guess, who knows what the hell those guys think. Anyway, I've always thought of life as a big football game...

Zebra221

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 04:52:41 AM »
Opions do vary on this, which is fine, but what did you end up with after this play?
Enforcing BIB or Clip? or did you pick it up all together?

El Macman

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 06:34:28 AM »
The S could have seen the block in question, but his primary key probably took him away from that block, because the key (wide receiver) had transitioned from receiver to lead blocker. I probably would have been focused on that action, too, prepared for a potential holding foul at the immediate point of attack. The block in question was something the B should have seen, being slightly off the immediate point of attack (but still at the general point of attack), and by his primary key. That the L saw it was good, in that he wasn't too focused on the BC. That the R saw is not at all a bad thing. What else did he have to look at? Nothing but air in his primary area. Looking downfield at lead blocking is perfectly OK. Did he have a great angle to make a proper ruling? That's certainly arguable. But that fact that he was looking there is not improper at all. Similarly for the L - did he have a great angle to make a proper ruling? Again, arguable. But certainly action he could/should be looking at. The B would have had the best angle
The S needed to get to the BC in the opponent's team area and escort him back into the field of play and clear of opponents. He almost got there, but let getting a replacement ball distract him. Get all the players separated and clear (back into the field of play) before worrying about a ball. In the history of American football, you won't find one recorded incident of a football committing a foul.  :)
Yes, the H or U should have seen the action behind the play. Although not a helmet foul or contact above the shoulders, the B player clearly pulled a "Pearl Harbor" (sneak attack) on the A player. At best, it was very similar to the block in the original question. i.e., on the torso of the opponent, and potentially in the back (he certainly wasn't trying to get to a BC or loose ball). More appropriately, that's a hit on a player clearly out of the play, a UNR.

I applaud you guys for working in the conditions you were in. Physically and in appearance, y'all looked good. Keep up the good work.

Flipside

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 09:04:29 AM »
Hi everybody!

I am the LJ in question on the film so I figured I should at least try and explain what I was thinking in the situation. I was the one that sold the clipping to the head ref and my reasoning was that I thought it was a dangerous hit just under the the waist. I believe my exact words were "shoulder pad to the butt". I also said it was very marginal so I referred to the when in doubt rule. For those that have talked about a IBB I must say I disagree. I don't feel that he comes clear enough from behind for an IBB and from what I have learned an IBB is an obstruction foul and has nothing to do with safety. The safety aspect was my total focus when throwing the flag so I feel that it was nothing less than a 15yrd foul. Had he bumped him higher I'm not even sure he would have fallen, probably just stumbled away.

My main question in all this is why not a clip if the shoulder pad hits the butt from behind? Is this not a "when in doubt" situation and if not why? So far from my evaluation and talking to many colleagues I have only recieved the feed back that I should never have thrown the flag or seen the infraction because I shouldn't be looking there and there was no foul. Some have called it questionable weither it is a IBB but everyone says no clip and no UNR. I have absolutely nothing against being wrong in my judgement but I need to know why "when in doubt" is wrong and how I should rethink simular situations in the future.

I would also like to apologize for the poor mechanics on my part after throwing the flag. This was the first game of the season and my first game in the highest league so I was a little wired up! :)

Thanks everybody!

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 09:27:07 AM »
Flip, Korean:
Certainly don't misunderstand no one (at least I am not) is "downgrading" your performance or busting your chops.
Cheers.

Korean_Hap

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2012, 09:43:14 AM »
I want to thank everyone for your comments! I put this here to get input from the best site on the internet :)
I take no offence at all, I/we listen to your comments and try to better ourselves. This was our first game of the season and for 3 or 4 of us our first experience as a 7 man crew.

I can't see this as a Bib. Looking at the excellent videos Matt Sumstine posted on BIB I can't say that I see the angels he talked about. As Flip said we enforced the clipping, we got an Incorrect call from our evaluation and was told we should have gone with the BIB. ( tho I think he would have been OK with a no call :) )



Flipside

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2012, 10:54:06 AM »
Hello again!

I have most certainly not taken any offence! Quite the opposite! I want as much feedback and opinions as possible! I only meant in my prior post that in the evaluation I got completely shotdown for pretty much everything I did on the play and I really don't feel that I should have been or don't really understand why. So I really want to understand so that I get it right next time. I think it is a MC and not an IC. So please, keep your inputs coming! I really think it is an interesting discussion and very educational!

El Macman

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Film From Sweden
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2012, 11:35:01 AM »
Hi everybody!

I am the LJ in question on the film so I figured I should at least try and explain what I was thinking in the situation. I was the one that sold the clipping to the head ref and my reasoning was that I thought it was a dangerous hit just under the the waist. I believe my exact words were "shoulder pad to the butt". I also said it was very marginal so I referred to the when in doubt rule. For those that have talked about a IBB I must say I disagree. I don't feel that he comes clear enough from behind for an IBB and from what I have learned an IBB is an obstruction foul and has nothing to do with safety. The safety aspect was my total focus when throwing the flag so I feel that it was nothing less than a 15yrd foul. Had he bumped him higher I'm not even sure he would have fallen, probably just stumbled away.

My main question in all this is why not a clip if the shoulder pad hits the butt from behind? Is this not a "when in doubt" situation and if not why? So far from my evaluation and talking to many colleagues I have only recieved the feed back that I should never have thrown the flag or seen the infraction because I shouldn't be looking there and there was no foul. Some have called it questionable weither it is a IBB but everyone says no clip and no UNR. I have absolutely nothing against being wrong in my judgement but I need to know why "when in doubt" is wrong and how I should rethink simular situations in the future.

I would also like to apologize for the poor mechanics on my part after throwing the flag. This was the first game of the season and my first game in the highest league so I was a little wired up! :)

Thanks everybody!

Flipside, correct, an illegal block in the back (BIB) is not classified as a safety foul.

The location of the force of the contact is certainly debatable. I see it being just above the belt line, on the torso of the body. To me that is not in question, so clipping is not an issue. That being my 'read,' I apply the 'when in question' component to the location of the force of the contact as a possible BIB. Is it squarely in the back? No. Is it possibly anywhere in the back? Yes. That being 'questionable,' I would go with a BIB.

If you have a foul at all, it must be either a BIB or a CLP. You can't say it is a clip, but wouldn't be a BIB if it was higher. If the force of the contact is from behind, it is either a CLP or a BIB. As I stated earlier, if the contact was higher, it would have quite possibly been on the shoulder. The shoulder is not the back. So, the force of the contact would not have been from behind. The torso, however, includes the back. So, contact at the same angle on the torso can be a BIB foul.

A coordinator will, most likely, want all of your fouls to be "big." So, the "When in Question" thing gets pretty gray, and variable with the type of foul. If it is a hold, BIB, PI, continuous helmet contact, etc., and marginal, they would, I believe, prefer that you stay off the foul, rather than apply "When in Question." However, there is no doubt that emphasis is clearly on the side of throwing on anything that is potentially targeting or hits on defensless players. For those fouls, I believe you can apply "When in Question," and will always get supported.

You guys are doing great, and your willingness to solicit input is awesome. Not that any of us here are perfect or have all of the answers, but we love sharing our knowledge and experience. We all get better that way.

And, I like that you write in complete words and sentences with proper spelling, punctuation, capitalization, etc., not any of that lazy "u r gr8 cu l8r" crap. What has happened to the English language? :'(

Chester

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2012, 12:39:16 PM »
Excellent video to discuss.  I think the LJ is looking right where he needs to be looking and this is his call all the way.  I'm an LJ and would definitely have an opinion on this play.  That being said, I don't think its a foul.  I think its a side block.  A CLP has to be from behind and below the knees and you don't have that here.  I do however, think it is a UNR foul behind the play.  A good discussion is who should get the foul.  The HL maybe.  Tough one to get but I believe a foul. 

As far as mechanics go, Don't forget when you're flag comes out of your pocket, it should be second nature to stop the clock once the play ends.  Always. 

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2012, 12:51:24 PM »
I believe "Make It Big" says it all. In other words, don't go looking for marginal fouls. Plenty of obvious ones will find you.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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El Macman

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2012, 01:04:58 PM »
A CLP has to be from behind and below the knees ...

Incorrect. From behind and at or below the waist. Exception: In the blocking zone, lineman that were positioned there at the snap may block above the knee from behind, but not at or below the knee. The former applies to the block under discussion.

Flipside

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2012, 01:19:49 PM »
Incorrect. From behind and at or below the waist. Exception: In the blocking zone, lineman that were positioned there at the snap may block above the knee from behind, but not at or below the knee. The former applies to the block under discussion.

That is exactly what I meant when I sold the call as a Clip, that the hit was at the waist. Possiblely very much from the side but definitely "at the waist". When I saw it happen live I saw his head on the front and the shoulder pad on the back and therefore called it a clip.

Chester

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2012, 01:51:20 PM »
Agree.  Waist not knees in this play. 

El Macman

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2012, 01:51:59 PM »
That is exactly what I meant when I sold the call as a Clip, that the hit was at the waist. Possiblely very much from the side but definitely "at the waist". When I saw it happen live I saw his head on the front and the shoulder pad on the back and therefore called it a clip.

I'm not your coordinator, so do what he wants.  If he liked it, carry on. If he didn't, I suspect he sees it much like I do.

Flipside

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2012, 02:08:08 PM »
He didn't like it. :) He wrote, "not your flag, no clipping, watch the runner". He isn't actually a supervisor, he is a colleague but still a very good and experienced official. I just feel that he made it sound so obvious and I don't think it was. Since there has been so many different opinions on the situation I guess that means that it isn't that obvious. I will take this with me in future games and make sure it is "a big one" before I throw the flag and give simular situations a little extra thought! As I said before, I appreciate all of your views. This has been a great discussion! Thanks for all the help!

El Macman

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2012, 03:07:23 PM »
He didn't like it. :) He wrote, "not your flag, no clipping, watch the runner". He isn't actually a supervisor, he is a colleague but still a very good and experienced official. I just feel that he made it sound so obvious and I don't think it was. Since there has been so many different opinions on the situation I guess that means that it isn't that obvious. I will take this with me in future games and make sure it is "a big one" before I throw the flag and give simular situations a little extra thought! As I said before, I appreciate all of your views. This has been a great discussion! Thanks for all the help!

Great attitude. Keep up the good work.
But, baloney it wasn't your flag. The BC wasn't threatened. What else does he want you to look at? Air? If the BC was being grabbed by the collar and immediately pulled to the ground and you missed that because you were looking at a block away from the BC, then, yeah, I would agree. But, our 'radar' is not short range. We scan, identify and prioritize threats, then deal with the highest threat at any moment. That's what you did. We might disagree about the quality of the call, but, mechanically, you were OK up to then. Yes, you failed to get a spot and stop the clock. But cross-field officiating will take care of the spot, and you just need to work on getting the clock stopped. You'll get it.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 08:03:45 AM by El Macman »

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2012, 03:17:03 PM »
An adage regarding "Make it big":
"If you're going to make them a criminal, make them a felon."

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2012, 03:39:28 PM »
...Possiblely very much from the side... When I saw it happen live I saw his head on the front and the shoulder pad on the back...
This is exactly why I said make it be there, and make it big. If it is "possibly from the side" and his "head was in front", it's not big enough to call. You pretty much answered your own question with those two statements.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline bossman72

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2012, 11:19:12 PM »
This one is close!  I could go with BIB here, but it could go either way (the other way being no-call).

No foul for clipping in my opinion.  Contact was at the lower back/waist.  Definitely want the blocker lower to call a clip here in the open field like that.  I don't think he was trying to "cut" him, he was just trying to get leverage.

Offline Sonofanump

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Re: Film from Sweden
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2012, 05:16:45 PM »
Yes, you failed to get a spot and stop the clock. But cross-field officiating will take care of the spot, and you just need to work on getting the clock stopped. You'll get it.

I think he got the spot, but face the runner and tackler out of bounds when you do so stopping the clock.

Looked like a BIB in real speed, not sure in slow motion.