conflicting ruling

[Aussie-Zebra]

This occured during a recent practice game.
QB throws a pass to WR who catches the ball in the EZ and comes down to the ground on her butt.
The LJ sees the ball go between the receivers legs onto the ground the BJ sees the ball trapped between the recievers knees without touching the ground and both are adamant about what they saw.

LJ signals  and BJ signals  which would look bad in a game but should you check off with another official even if there is no doubt what you saw ?

 

[wlemonnier]

You said both officials are adamant on what they saw... that sounds like neither has doubt.  If you saw it incomplete... no doubt... then call it incomplete.  You don't need to look for confirmation or help when you saw it incomplete.  If you saw it a catch, then you take the time to look at your partner before signaling it a catch.  Now the real issue arises... what do you do Mr. Referee in this conflict resolution situation?

[El Macman]

In the first place, when in question, the pass is NOT completed.
In the second place, any incomplete ruling trumps a complete ruling. The 'complete' official needs to accede to the 'incomplete' official. But, by the same token, the 'incomplete' official needs to be 100% positive, and not be making a ruling based on circumstantial evidence. He needs to be able to live or die with his ruling. In this case, the R would need to go with incomplete.

Let the play go unless you see something that makes it incomplete. But, if you positively see something that makes it incomplete - hammer it incomplete.

[Aussie-Zebra]

Thanks Bill & Mac 

I had the same thoughts but I wasn't sure of any procedure or mechanic in this situation.

[VALJ]

And then chew your LJ and BJ out at halftime for not communicating before they signalled.  As one of our gray-haired vets says, "A touchdown is forever...:

[wlemonnier]

"In the first place, when in question, the pass is NOT completed."

This axiom is intended for a pass/catch/fumble v. pass/catch v incomplete situation... when in doubt it's incomplete not a fumble.  When it comes to a low pass, if you haven't seen it touch the ground you cannot call it incomplete on "when in doubt".  If you haven't seen it touch the ground and you have a receiver possession the football... you have a catch.

[El Macman]

"In the first place, when in question, the pass is NOT completed."

This axiom is intended for a pass/catch/fumble v. pass/catch v incomplete situation... when in doubt it's incomplete not a fumble.  When it comes to a low pass, if you haven't seen it touch the ground you cannot call it incomplete on "when in doubt".  If you haven't seen it touch the ground and you have a receiver possession the football... you have a catch.

Bill, for the covering official, I absolutely concur that he needs to let the play continue, if he is in question in such cases as you describe. But, if you, as the R, are presented with opposing rulings, and neither official is willing to accede to the other, you have to make a decision. 2-4-3-f says, when in question, a catch, recovery, or interception is not completed. In the absence of replay, and without something compelling to indicate that the 'incomplete' ruling is incorrect, you have no choice but to rule incomplete. By rule, when in question, incomplete trumps complete.

[wlemonnier]

Agree, if both are adamant about their call then we have an incomplete pass.  My point is simply don't call a low pass to the ground incomplete unless you see it touch the ground.  Again, I agree with your point.

Another thing to remember is that "When in Doubt" is designed for the primary covering official, not secondary officials on the play.  Secondary officials can step up and make a call when the KNOW the call.

[El Macman]

Agree, if both are adamant about their call then we have an incomplete pass.  My point is simply don't call a low pass to the ground incomplete unless you see it touch the ground.  Again, I agree with your point.

Another thing to remember is that "When in Doubt" is designed for the primary covering official, not secondary officials on the play.  Secondary officials can step up and make a call when the KNOW the call.

We're on the same page.