PSK and Illegal Touch

[Welpe]

Doing a search I've seen this come up several times but it has been several years it seems since it was directly addressed.

What do you all have for this play?

A 4th and 4 from the B-44. Kicker A1's punt rolls to the B-3 where A2 muffs the ball to the B-2. B1 picks up the ball and begins to run but fumbles into the end zone where A5 recovers. During the kick,
B3 held A4 at the B-10.

Specifically, is Team B the next to put the ball in play?

[Kalle]

Team B is not the next to put the ball in play. See play 3 in http://romgilbert.us/p-1106.htm

1st and 10 for team A at B-34. If the foul by B3 is a PF, then it would be a TD for team A.

[clearwall]

So the key here is "during the kick?" What if this was the situation:

A 4th and 4 from the B-44. Kicker A1's punt rolls to the B-3 where A2 muffs the ball to the B-2. B1 picks up the ball and begins to run but fumbles into the end zone where A5 recovers. During B1's run,
B3 held A4 at the B-10.

Ruling B 1/10 at the B3?

[Atlanta Blue]

I don't think so.  If A accepts the foul the end of the run was the B2, so half the distance to the B1.

[Cowman52]

Trying to follow,  throw out muff, can't happen,  if A kicked then bean bag where A touched, play continue, B recovery ok, fumble ok, A recovery T D for A. B can elect to take ball by A touching, with holding penalty of 1/2 distance from spot of revovery.
 Muff can not be advanced by either team,  ball dead at spot of recovery, in this instance B 2, every thing after that didn't happen.  Holding 1/2 distance from b2, B ball

[TXMike]

Remember...an accepted penalty wipes out the "illegal touch".

[TxSkyBolt]

Trying to follow,  throw out muff, can't happen,  if A kicked then bean bag where A touched, play continue, B recovery ok, fumble ok, A recovery T D for A. B can elect to take ball by A touching, with holding penalty of 1/2 distance from spot of revovery.
 Muff can not be advanced by either team,  ball dead at spot of recovery, in this instance B 2, every thing after that didn't happen.  Holding 1/2 distance from b2, B ball

Ball is not dead at spot of recovery.  B can always advance this ball.  Only Team A is prohibited from advancing a kick.

[Hawkeye]

Muff can not be advanced by either team,  ball dead at spot of recovery, ...

I need to get technical here: A Muff is not a status of the ball, it is an action that happens to the ball.

A muffed kick cannot be advanced by the kicking team but can be advanced by the receiving team, notice the status of the ball is a kick.  A muffed fumble can be advanced (with certain exceptions) by either team, again notice the status is a fumble.  It is the status of the ball that determines whether it can be advanced or not after a muff, not the action of muffing the ball 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program ...

[Cowman52]

A muffed fumble? It' s a fumble or a muff. 
  If he tried to pick it up and missed, it is just a touch. -  bean bag,  the ball could come back to that spot.
Muff has no part of the process.
 To be a muff he had to be awaiting kick and it went through his hands, arms, down his leg to the ground, 

[Hawkeye]

A muffed fumble? It' s a fumble or a muff. 
  If he tried to pick it up and missed, it is just a touch. -  bean bag,  the ball could come back to that spot.
Muff has no part of the process.
 To be a muff he had to be awaiting kick and it went through his hands, arms, down his leg to the ground, 

Rule 2-11-2

Muff
ARTICLE 2. To muff the ball is to make an unsuccessful attempt to catch or
recover a ball that is touched in the attempt. Muffing the ball does not change
its status.

If a player tries to pick up a ball (recover) and misses, he has muffed it (see above).  If the ball he muffed was a fumble, then it remains a fumble, but it has been muffed.  If the ball he muffed is a kick, then it remains a kick, but it has been muffed.  The status that 2-11-2 refers to can be one of the four: 1. In possession, 2. fumble, 3. pass and 4. kick.

[M_Graham_TX]

So the key here is "during the kick?" What if this was the situation:

A 4th and 4 from the B-44. Kicker A1's punt rolls to the B-3 where A2 muffs the ball to the B-2. B1 picks up the ball and begins to run but fumbles into the end zone where A5 recovers. During B1's run,
B3 held A4 at the B-10.

Ruling B 1/10 at the B3?

Clear,
In your situation A would have two options, either accept the hold, which the enforcement spot would be the end of B1's related run, I assume in this situation it would be the B2 but it is not stated where he fumbled the ball. Which would give you B 1 & 10 @ B1, or if the end of the run was further down field, they can decline the hold, in which case B would take the ball at the spot of illegal touching, B 1 & 10 @ B3.

[Andrew McCarthy]

A muffed fumble? It' s a fumble or a muff. 
  If he tried to pick it up and missed, it is just a touch. -  bean bag,  the ball could come back to that spot.
Muff has no part of the process.
 To be a muff he had to be awaiting kick and it went through his hands, arms, down his leg to the ground,

Whenever Brent Musburger is on, try the MUTE button.

Then head to Rule 2.

[Rulesman]

Brent Musburger Drinking Game

[Kalle]

A muffed fumble? It' s a fumble or a muff. 
  If he tried to pick it up and missed, it is just a touch. -  bean bag,  the ball could come back to that spot.
Muff has no part of the process.
 To be a muff he had to be awaiting kick and it went through his hands, arms, down his leg to the ground,

Please see 2-11-2: "To muff the ball is to make an unsuccessful attempt to catch or recover a ball that is touched in the attempt. Muffing the ball does not change its status." Both your examples are muffs and in neither case does the status of the ball change. Muff is one way of intentionally touching the ball, with the others being bat, catch, interception, recovery and handoff.

[El Macman]

A muffed fumble? It' s a fumble or a muff. 
  If he tried to pick it up and missed, it is just a touch. -  bean bag,  the ball could come back to that spot.
Muff has no part of the process.
 To be a muff he had to be awaiting kick and it went through his hands, arms, down his leg to the ground,

Not sure where you heard any of that, but it is simply wrong. A muff is an unsuccessful attempt to catch or recover a loose ball, and the ball is touched in the process. Could be a pass (forward or backward), a fumble, or a kick. When the QB fails to secure the ball (but touches it) when it is snapped hand-to-hand to him, that is a muffed backward pass. When a player fails to secure (but touches) the ball while attempting to pick up a fumble, that is a muffed fumble recovery attempt. When a receiver fails to secure (but touches) a pass to him (forward or backward), that is a muffed pass.
 
Correct - Team A may not advance the ball after catching or recovering a legally kicked ball on a free kick, or that is beyond the NZ on a scrimmage kick. Those rules apply regardless if the kicked ball has been touched or muffed by Team B (or Team A, for that matter). The status of a live, legally kicked ball (untouched, touched, or muffed) is a kick, until the ball comes into player possession (either team). After that, the status of the ball is:
- in player possession, or
- loose from a pass (legal backward, illegal forward), or
- loose from a fumble, or
- loose from a kick (illegal)

Team B may always advance any live ball.

[Andrew McCarthy]

In football context, "muff" is a verb.

[scl-man]

Team B is not the next to put the ball in play. See play 3 in http://romgilbert.us/p-1106.htm

1st and 10 for team A at B-34. If the foul by B3 is a PF, then it would be a TD for team A.

Why wouldn't the holding foul before the COP on a TD scoring play be declined by rule (10-2-5-a-2)?

[Welpe]

Why wouldn't the holding foul before the COP on a TD scoring play be declined by rule (10-2-5-a-2)?

See here

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=9258.0

[scl-man]

See here

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=9258.0

I understand the plays described in the link above, but in those plays the foul occurs during a running play after a COP.  The play in this post describes a foul during the kick.

[Kalle]

Why wouldn't the holding foul before the COP on a TD scoring play be declined by rule (10-2-5-a-2)?

Because it can be enforced from the previous spot, as it is a foul during a kick play, and the last sentence in 10-2-5-a-2 kicks in.

[clearwall]

Clear,
In your situation A would have two options, either accept the hold, which the enforcement spot would be the end of B1's related run, I assume in this situation it would be the B2 but it is not stated where he fumbled the ball. Which would give you B 1 & 10 @ B1, or if the end of the run was further down field, they can decline the hold, in which case B would take the ball at the spot of illegal touching, B 1 & 10 @ B3.

Mr M...
Curious why A has the option if they illegally touch?

[Kalle]

Curious why A has the option if they illegally touch?

Because a foul trumps the illegal touch. See rule 6-3-2-b.

[ljudge]

So the key here is "during the kick?" What if this was the situation:

A 4th and 4 from the B-44. Kicker A1's punt rolls to the B-3 where A2 muffs the ball to the B-2. B1 picks up the ball and begins to run but fumbles into the end zone where A5 recovers. During B1's run,
B3 held A4 at the B-10.

Ruling B 1/10 at the B3?

That's exactly what it should be (unless I'm missing something).  The penalty is automatically declined since a TD was scored.  Now you have illegal touching, hence B's ball at the B3.

[Kalle]

That's exactly what it should be (unless I'm missing something).  The penalty is automatically declined since a TD was scored.  Now you have illegal touching, hence B's ball at the B3.

Incorrect, see A.R. 6-3-2-IV (and compare it to III). Only fouls during the team A (last) run would be declined by rule.

[ljudge]

Thanks Kalle!  Between yourself and my crewmate (deepwing) you both helped me get this correct.  I was scratching my head on this one for a bit knowing I have seen this before.  This question has a slightly different twist which is the difference between the AR's you have noted.  Appreciate the help.  Cheers!