new topic spin off of Ohio St/Penn State play

[zebra99]

1.  punter is near his end line - high snap so he steps on the end line, leaps in the air and catches the snap, lands back in bounds and kicks the ball.

2.  punter is near his end line - high snap so he steps on the end line, comes back in bounds, catches the snap and kicks the ball.

Rulings?

[El Macman]

As much as I despise this effect of the rule, the rule doesn't give the kicker a break on this. This is an illegal return. Before so much TV, R's could ignore this. But not so easy, today.

Last season, in an FBS game, a free kick was touched in the field of play by B, bounded into B's end zone, near the end line, and an A player, chasing the loose ball, went OB beyond the end line, returned inbounds and recovered the ball. The R ruled TD. He was severely chastised by his coordinator for the incorrect ruling, i.e., failure to rule the illegal return.

This is a terrible rule. It should be changed to only apply to A players that go OB at the sideline between the goal lines. That would resolve the issues you raise, as well.

[zebra99]

As much as I despise this effect of the rule, the rule doesn't give the kicker a break on this. This is an illegal return. Before so much TV, R's could ignore this. But not so easy, today.

Last season, in an FBS game, a free kick was touched in the field of play by B, bounded into B's end zone, near the end line, and an A player, chasing the loose ball, went OB beyond the end line, returned inbounds and recovered the ball. The R ruled TD. He was severely chastised by his coordinator for the incorrect ruling, i.e., failure to rule the illegal return.

This is a terrible rule. It should be changed to only apply to A players that go OB at the sideline between the goal lines. That would resolve the issues you raise, as well.

so El Mac - what do you have on my two plays?  Both with fouls by A for voluntarily OB and returning during a kick play?  Is that what you're saying?

So - here's another one - ball is kicked downfield.  A steps on the sideline leaps in the air then while airborne bats the kick backwards and it lands in bounds,  He then lands and stays out of bounds.  Ruling?

[Kalle]

so El Mac - what do you have on my two plays?  Both with fouls by A for voluntarily OB and returning during a kick play?  Is that what you're saying?

So - here's another one - ball is kicked downfield.  A steps on the sideline leaps in the air then while airborne bats the kick backwards and it lands in bounds,  He then lands and stays out of bounds.  Ruling?

First two are easy, five yards from either the PS or the "end of down" spot, 6-3-12. The third one is a legal play, see Rom's last quiz (the player never returns inbounds and is not out of bounds when he legally bats the ball).

[zebra99]

First two are easy, five yards from either the PS or the "end of down" spot, 6-3-12. The third one is a legal play, see Rom's last quiz (the player never returns inbounds and is not out of bounds when he legally bats the ball).

agree with 1 and 2, both K going OB and returning - not so sure about my other one.  Not sure Rom is a designated authority anymore than others  .... until I see something definitive from RR   ........   I still think when you're in the air, you're in bounds.  I don't have Rom's last quiz handy - does he cite rule book authority?

I believe if you're not OB then your are inbounds.  Is there a definition of "player inbounds" somewhere? 

[Diablo]

I believe if you're not OB then your are inbounds.  Is there a definition of "player inbounds" somewhere?

Z99, I would like to believe that an airborne player is considered "inbounds".  But AR 6-2-2-IV clearly says that's not true in at least one situation.

IV  Free kick at the A-35. Airborne B17 has leaped from inbounds and is
the first player to touch Team A’s free kick when he receives the ball.
He subsequently lands out of bounds with the ball in his possession.
RULING: Foul, free kick out of bounds. Team B has these options:
It may accept a five-yard penalty at the previous spot with Team A
re-kicking; snap the ball at its 35-yard line at the hash mark; or snap
the ball at the inbounds spot five yards from where the ball crossed the
sideline.

If the rules maker believed airborne B17 was truly inbounds, his ruling would be "no foul".

[TXMike]

Player can be "in bounds", "out of bounds", and "in between bounds".  Different rules say different things about players "in bounds" and "out of bounds".  They do not specifically address a player "in between bounds" so we have to infer what he is able to do based on how the rules are worded, i.e. if a rule says something can't be done by an "out of bounds" player, that would not apply to an "inbounds" or In between bounds" player.

[El Macman]

so El Mac - what do you have on my two plays?  Both with fouls by A for voluntarily OB and returning during a kick play?  Is that what you're saying?

So - here's another one - ball is kicked downfield.  A steps on the sideline leaps in the air then while airborne bats the kick backwards and it lands in bounds,  He then lands and stays out of bounds.  Ruling?

1 & 2 are fouls for illegal return, as unfair as this is, IMHO.
The third scenario is a legal play.

[TXMike]

So - here's another one - ball is kicked downfield.  A steps on the sideline leaps in the air then while airborne bats the kick backwards and it lands in bounds,  He then lands and stays out of bounds.  Ruling?

Isn't that exactly what happened in the orig onside kick play (except for legality of batting direction) ?

[El Macman]

Yet another ambiguous and inconsistent scenario:
Near a sideline, airborne B80 bats, muffs, or grasps and propels a ball loose from a free kick. The ball lands inbounds, then bounces out of bounds. I believe RR would tell us the ball has been touched in the field of play, so this not an illegal kick out of bounds (ignoring, for the moment, the possibility of illegal batting). Quite in contrast to an airborne B player carrying the ball out of bounds, or the ball landing directly out of bounds (following the muff, bat, throw).
I still haven't figured out the reasoning for changing the rules to make a B "carry" an illegal kick OB.

[Diablo]

Near a sideline, airborne B80 bats, muffs, or grasps and propels a ball loose from a free kick. The ball lands inbounds, then bounces out of bounds. I believe RR would tell us the ball has been touched in the field of play, so this not an illegal kick out of bounds (ignoring, for the moment, the possibility of illegal batting). Quite in contrast to an airborne B player carrying the ball out of bounds, or the ball landing directly out of bounds.

If that were Dr. Redding's ruling, airborne B80 would be considered "in bounds".

[Andrew McCarthy]

You guys are arguing the same thing in the original play when you say the official should have wound the clock on the bat.

[El Macman]

You guys are arguing the same thing in the original play when you say the official should have wound the clock on the bat.

Truly, that is another element of this equation. For this, though, I'm going with touched in the field of play and winding (if legal). Indeed, inconsistent.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Player can be "in bounds", "out of bounds", and "in between bounds".

I like that - now we need Rule 2 definitions of each! 

[zebra99]

Z99, I would like to believe that an airborne player is considered "inbounds".  But AR 6-2-2-IV clearly says that's not true in at least one situation.

IV  Free kick at the A-35. Airborne B17 has leaped from inbounds and is
the first player to touch Team A’s free kick when he receives the ball.
He subsequently lands out of bounds with the ball in his possession.
RULING: Foul, free kick out of bounds. Team B has these options:
It may accept a five-yard penalty at the previous spot with Team A
re-kicking; snap the ball at its 35-yard line at the hash mark; or snap
the ball at the inbounds spot five yards from where the ball crossed the
sideline.

If the rules maker believed airborne B17 was truly inbounds, his ruling would be "no foul".

This is still consistent with my thoughts - nothing in this play says that B17 is a "nothing" while in the air.  He can still be labeled in bounds while in the air.  Penalty arises when he first becomes out of bounds by touching out of bounds.

When he first touches the ball while airborne this play implies he is " in bounds" because the play continues until he touches OB.

This play really doesn't solve the in bounds v. out of bounds while in the air question.  And it does not involve the K going OB then back inbounds type of foul.

[zebra99]

so getting back to my punter near the end line play.  Is it immediately a foul the moment K touches (no bat) the snap while still airborne after stepping on the end line?  I think it is.  If not then assume he doesn't bat the ball, just touches it and then lands OB  ....  what then?    ......  or then lands inbounds?

(I love this early AM - west coast - discussions, better than coffee) 

[El Macman]

so getting back to my punter near the end line play.  Is it immediately a foul the moment K touches (no bat) the snap while still airborne after stepping on the end line?  I think it is.  If not then assume he doesn't bat the ball, just touches it and then lands OB  ....  what then?    ......  or then lands inbounds?

(I love this early AM - west coast - discussions, better than coffee) 

It isn't a foul until he lands inbounds, for the illegal return, regardless if he only touched the snapped ball, or also secured it and is holding it. If he lands OB - and stays there - no foul for the illegal return. If he holds the snapped ball and returns to the ground OB, then he, and the ball, are just out of bounds (safety).

Now, these are my understandings of the rules. I haven't exactly been batting 1000 with RR rulings in recent history, so my apple cart might get upset (again) if RR were to weigh in on this. But, we know a free kick carried OB by an airborne B player is a free kick OB. So the language, "...untouched by an inbounds player of Team B..." doesn't exaclty reconcile with the AR 6-2-2-IV. The key in that AR, though, is that he carries the ball OB, not just touches it and then it goes OB. Why that is different - I don't know.