Blown dead. Offsetting fouls?

[cperezprg]

4&10 A-30, punt team A enters the field, also Team B make his subs.
B has 12 on field and don't notice (well, actually 10; it's a 9x9 game)
Coach A notice it and yell to his center to snap the ball to get the penalty, but team A has not set one second

So:

Whistle dead ball at snap and ...
a) False Start (Illegal Shift) Team A
b) Illegal Substitution Team B
c) Offsetting fouls

I decided option c when this happened.

Thanks.

[VALJ]

Why kill the play?  Both are live ball fouls, are they not?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Based on the current rules the call was correct:

From Rule 3.5.3b: Team B is allowed to briefly retain more than 11 players on the field to anticipate the offensive formation, but it may not have more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent. Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action.

[younggun]

If Team B is still in the process of getting its subs on and players off, there should not have been a snap in the first place, but if they are all standing there in a 'formation' then that is a different story.

[Kalle]

 You cannot have offsetting fouls here. If you judge that team B did not react promptly enough before the snap, it is illegal substitution. Otherwise it is a false start of the second kind. In any case it will be a dead ball foul.

[cperezprg]

Team B has ended his subs long ago. They're in a formation.

So Kalle, if B had the wrong number of players on the field, and Team A snaps the ball you think it's B's fault, even if Team A has not accomplished the requirements of a legal snap?

[VALJ]

Based on the current rules the call was correct:

From Rule 3.5.3b: Team B is allowed to briefly retain more than 11 players on the field to anticipate the offensive formation, but it may not have more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent. Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action.

Didn't even realize I was in the NCAA forum.  My apologies...

[Andrew McCarthy]

Who blew the whistle to kill it and what did he have?

[cperezprg]

Almost every official, R and HL have Illegal Shift. BJ and LJ have illegal Substitution

[BNE-Ref]

I'm with Kalle here.

3-5-3-b requires that we kill the play when the snap is imminent (or immediately after the snap).  Because of the fact that B was already in formation, the snap should not have been allowed to occur, and so, it is a dead ball Illegal Substitution against B.  Ignore A's illegal shift converting to a false start, as the snap should not have happened.

[Kalle]

So Kalle, if B had the wrong number of players on the field, and Team A snaps the ball you think it's B's fault, even if Team A has not accomplished the requirements of a legal snap?

It is team B's fault as they fouled before there was any snap attempt. This is just like a situation where a team A lineman jumps just as a team B lineman opposite him enters the neutral zone before the snap. You cannot have offsetting fouls, you have to decide who fouled first.

[Morningrise]

I agree with the above posters; the illegal substitution foul occurs when the snap is imminent, not when it occurs, regardless of when the officials actually come to the decision.

B fouls first. We then disregard A's false start that occurs afterward.

Not because all DBFs after the first one are ignored - that is definitely NOT how the rules work - but because the snap is no longer possible by rule, and thus false starts aren't possible either. But if A slugged someone, you'd definitely enforce both DBFs.

[Diablo]

I agree with the above posters; the illegal substitution foul occurs when the snap is imminent, not when it occurs, regardless of when the officials actually come to the decision.

B fouls first. We then disregard A's false start that occurs afterward.

Not because all DBFs after the first one are ignored - that is definitely NOT how the rules work - but because the snap is no longer possible by rule, and thus false starts aren't possible either. But if A slugged someone, you'd definitely enforce both DBFs.

From the initial description, I'm not sure a snap is imminent.  Nevertheless, if not imminent and B has excess players in the formation for more than 3 sec., it's a dead ball foul right then & there.

[Wingmanbp]

The way I see it, is if the offense hasnt had a chance to set for one second, then there is no way a snap is immenent. Plus if they havent finished shift, wouldnt it be an illegal shift live ball foul and therefore the we would not have a snap so the defense would not be penalized for 12 men.

[Wingmanbp]

Make that offsetting penalties because it is a live ball foul. Correct?

[Kalle]

Make that offsetting penalties because it is a live ball foul. Correct?

Again, false start of the second kind is a dead ball foul. And if you rule that team B fouls before the false start, that too would need to be a dead ball foul - not taking into account the NCAA preference to make all substitution fouls dead ball.

[Wingmanbp]

If the offense hasnt set then how do we have a false start? It has to be illegal shift! right?

[Kalle]

If the offense hasnt set then how do we have a false start? It has to be illegal shift! right?

See rule 7-1-2-b-5: [It is a false start:] "The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV)."

This rule was added in 2011 (or so), and it is commonly called a false start of the second kind.

[BNE-Ref]

If the offense hasnt set then how do we have a false start? It has to be illegal shift! right?

NCAA 7-1-2-b-5 - this is an illegal shift that converts into a false start.  If A has never set before the snap, it is treated as a dead ball false start. 

Thus, in my opinion, a snap can be imminent even if A has never set, otherwise that would be inconsistent with 7-1-2-b-5.  In that case, as B fouls when the snap is imminent, B's foul (which kills the play) happens before A can infringe.  So penalise B only.
 

[Wingmanbp]

I see now what your saying however I still have a problem with penalizing B when A snapped the ball before they were set in order to catch B. But maybe i am missing something else!. Thanks for the insight though. Its hard to learn these plays unless you see them or have heard stories of them.

[Diablo]

I see now what your saying however I still have a problem with penalizing B when A snapped the ball before they were set in order to catch B. But maybe i am missing something else!. Thanks for the insight though. Its hard to learn these plays unless you see them or have heard stories of them.

Team B did not need to be caught in order to consummate their foul.  This situation is not the same as a Team B player being positioned in the neutral zone (offside) and A snaps the ball.  The situation on the table is more akin to a Team B player coming across the NZ and contacting an A player followed by Team A snapping the ball.

[Wingmanbp]

That makes sense

[NVFOA_Ump]

That makes sense

Given that the original post did not mention that B had the extra player on for more than the allowed time let's look at the original post as written.

We have both teams making "full team" substitutions for an "obvious" 4th down scrimmage kick play.  As team A is approaching the line, immediately after completing their subs, coach A yells snap the ball since B is still completing their subs and has 12 on the field.  Team B is obviously momentarily confused with no one heading off, but they are not what we could really call "in formation".  Team A follows coaches orders and quick snaps without ever having been set, with B still having that extra player on the field.    What are we calling given those facts?

[cperezprg]

In that case, U must be over the ball and not let Team A to snap the ball, giving team B enough time to complete his subs.

In my case (original post), team B has enough time to do all the subs. In fact, they did it before team A because they notice it was4th down sooner.