Author Topic: Excessive Celebration ??  (Read 42842 times)

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Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2010, 05:14:32 PM »
If he took the same amount of time to run through the end zone as he did for this momentary kneel, would you flag?

Again, I do not have any issue with what the player in the original situation did- I commend him for kneeling and giving thanks. But why does he need to do it in the end zone, if not to draw attention to his action, and therefore to himself?

Without additional context though, I find it hard to fault the official who threw this flag in the original situation for his action, nor would I find fault with the official if he did not. Similarly, it would be hard for me to fault an official who flagged a person for running through the end zone, or to fault him if he didn't.

Without seeing a specific example of the type you mention, it is hard to say for sure. Each act should be judged individually, in the context of the game. I would never say that I would always flag that action, but I would also never say never either. Even a chest bump, in certain situations, could be viewed as excesive.

Based on your description, I would probably not flag the player for running through the end zone, but there is a lot of information that is missing. Was he running through the end zone toward his sideline, or his teammates, or perhaps toward an official to give him the ball?

Was he waving his arms or doing anything else to draw attention to himself? Was he running toward the other team, or their bench, or away from everyone toward an open area?

If in my judgment, it was any of the first part, probably not. If he was doing things in the second part, then I would at least consider it.

There are few absolutes in these situations, that's why we are asked to apply our judgment. It is assumed that with experience, the official's judgment improves. (and why in most cases, the most experienced officials work the bigger games). If you take judgment out of the equation, by using "always" and "never" than anyone could work those games.

It is certainly possible that throwing the flag may have been an overreaction or hypertechnical application of the rules. But it is also possible that by throwing that flag, it prevented an escalation of oneupsmanship.

If, as was stated earlier, this was early in the game, perhaps it was a good idea to establish boundaries. Taking the religious aspect out of it, flagging this act for taking place in the end zone, hopefully prevents other acts from occurring in the end zone.

If it occurs later in the game, had you previously warned the player not to do these kinds of things? Had there been other acts leading up to this?

We just don't know from the information available, but all of those issues could have an impact on whether or not I throw the flag in this particular situation.




Offline TXMike

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2010, 05:23:20 PM »
Clearly we are coming at this from 2 diff rulebooks.  Having never reffed under Fed rules I am unable to understand the context that some of you are coming from.  It is interesting though at how divided even you fed guys are.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2010, 05:58:41 PM »
I think it is safe to say if we flagged run of the mill chest bumps around here we'd be relegated to 7th Grade C games only.

I'm frankly pretty surprised to read that VALinesman but clearly the expectation is different between our areas.

VALinesman

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2010, 07:36:38 PM »
Clearly we are coming at this from 2 diff rulebooks.  Having never reffed under Fed rules I am unable to understand the context that some of you are coming from.  It is interesting though at how divided even you fed guys are.

It is quite interesting....Thankfully it is easier to access the NCAA rulebook online than the fed. It's wierd. But I have certainly learned alot about NCAA rules from you and other posters. If I ever make the change, you guys have certainly made the job easier for me....

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2010, 09:20:14 PM »
That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

TxMike -- as to the chest-bump, I would flag that (or at least a stern warning on the first, flag on the second). As soon as you give an inch, they take a foot. If you let the chest-bump go, then the next player is going to take it to the next level. And that is how officials lose control of games -- letting certain stuff slide and then wondering what went wrong...

Last I read, celebration with your teammates is still legal (and encouraged).  It's the self aggrandizing that is a foul.  Lets let them be kids for crying out loud.

VALinesman

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2010, 12:22:22 AM »
Last I read, celebration with your teammates is still legal (and encouraged).  It's the self aggrandizing that is a foul.  Lets let them be kids for crying out loud.

I think that you are simplifying the situation. If that is the case, would you let them jump up and down in the endzone? It's not about kids being kids, it's about sportsmanship, and there is a difference.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2010, 10:30:53 AM »
Clearly we are coming at this from 2 diff rulebooks.  Having never reffed under Fed rules I am unable to understand the context that some of you are coming from.  It is interesting though at how divided even you fed guys are.


In some respects the NFHS rules seem to allow the judgment of the field officials a lot more leeway and jurisdiction than NCAA rules.  Perhaps that's partially due to the fact NFHS rules are specifically designed for seconday school athletes, usually below age 19, and the game at that level is often seen as more of an educational experience than a means unto itself.

Whereas NCAA games, and rule interpretations, are intended to apply to a far more global audience of participants, requiring a higher level of uniformity, HS football's focus is generally more localized and rarely extends beyond the individual State level, other than occassional All-Star games, which may involve their own adjusted rule interpretations.

Heavier reliance on individual judgment inevitably contributes to a greater level of what boils down to a difference of opinion, or what some might considered a lower level of consistency between disparate regions.

As a game, football involves direct physical contact between players who range between ages 6 and 60.  Considering the amount of physical contact involved, it's no surprise there would be different rules codes (NFHS, NCAA, NFL) to address the obvious differences in skills and capabilities between age groups.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2010, 01:34:02 PM »
FWIW, I've got no problem with this action, and I've got no problem with a chest bump, either.  Nobody in our association would flag the point to the sky, and I don't think very many in our association would flag a routine chest bump, either. 

Different strokes for different folks, even in Virginia.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2010, 06:09:23 PM »
Amen to that!   No wonder the Civil War is so big over there.  The difference between the communists in Northern Virginia and the decent folks in the rest of the state is striking!


(Edited to fix the grammar)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 08:01:31 PM by TXMike »

VALinesman

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2010, 07:56:54 PM »
Amen to that!   No wonder the Civil War is so big over there.  The difference between the communists in Northern Virginia and the decent folks in the rest of the state are striking!

LOL! Great post!

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2010, 01:40:01 PM »
I'm an atheist but I wouldn't flag it - we are fairly liberal on celebration after a score. Mind you next season - a USC would negate the TD.

One thing I am amazed at - and no one has mentioned it - why did the officials not blow the play dead at 0.17 ? #35 green/white clearly has no helmet on - going for the sack on the QB  - and again at 0.23 he's still running trying around to make another tackle.
For every coach that thinks we got it wrong there's another that thinks we got it right.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2010, 01:44:48 PM »
Ball becomes dead only if teh runner's helmet comes off.  If others lose theirs, play continues.

This act would not negate the TD as it was after the score .  It will only negate TDs when foul is before the score

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2010, 02:08:07 PM »
Only the runner ? I assumed it was anyone on the field - I'll have to revise my on field action on that one - I wondered why no one was picking up on it :)

DOH ! - yep USC after the score. My bad.

I believe you had a milestone birthday last month Mike that went unnoticed on here ?
For every coach that thinks we got it wrong there's another that thinks we got it right.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2010, 02:10:25 PM »
Nope, no birthday for me last month. 

Diablo

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2010, 02:48:45 PM »

Ball becomes dead only if teh runner's helmet comes off.  If others lose theirs, play continues.


Hate to pick at nits, but it's ball carrier's.  It does make a difference.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2010, 02:52:38 PM »
Only the runner ? I assumed it was anyone on the field - I'll have to revise my on field action on that one - I wondered why no one was picking up on it :)

Don't be assuming, be knowing.  aWaRd

4-1-3-q

ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:

q. When a ball carrier’s helmet comes completely off.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #91 on: December 09, 2010, 03:47:11 PM »
The language is somewhat different under the NFHS code.  NF:4-2-2-k: "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended (k) When the helmet comes completely off a player who is in possession of the ball.". 

This seems to also exclude that part of the definition of a "Runner" that includes, "a player.....simulating possession of a live ball".

Offline VALJ

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2010, 04:01:40 PM »
Amen to that!   No wonder the Civil War is so big over there.  The difference between the communists in Northern Virginia and the decent folks in the rest of the state is striking!
(Edited to fix the grammar)

 LOL

And the part that I really find funny is that, according to the locals, I'm a "damnyankee", having been born in Mass. and grown up in Chicago.

Of course, the difference between a "yankee" and a "damnyankee" is that the yankee goes home.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Excessive Celebration ??
« Reply #93 on: December 09, 2010, 09:20:40 PM »
LOL

And the part that I really find funny is that, according to the locals, I'm a "damnyankee", having been born in Mass. and grown up in Chicago.

Of course, the difference between a "yankee" and a "damnyankee" is that the yankee goes home.

Try being an ex-Californian in Texas...  pi1eOn