What Can We do About Early Blocking During Onside KO's ? (videos)

[TXMike]

We have used it more than once in training sessions to show how things SHOULD be done. 

[BP1911]

Hey we can get this!  We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier".   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU

Gang....  I am going to have to disagree with this call.  Should NOT have been a call for Illegal Blocking for this reason.

Team B (Blue) - Charges the ball as soon as it is kicked.  The contact happened at the 8yd mark.

How can you expected Team A not to block someone before 10 yards when Team B is sitting on the 8 yard mark?

Team B intiated the contact and is being rewared for it, by not losing possession.

Team A recovered and should have been awarded the ball.  1 & 10 (White)

Regards



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[TXMike]

Of course I disagree!!  The rule is written to give protection to Team B players up to the point that Team A can legally touch the ball.  When Team B comes forward ( as they have every right to do) to make a play on the ball, team A is not eligible to touch the ball so is not eligible to block either.  This is VERY different than when Team B players come forward specifically to block Team A and keep them away from trying to recover the ball which may travel 10 yards.  If Team B initiates the block, no foul on A. But if Team B is trying to play the ball, it is (AND SHOULD BE) a foul on A if they block early.

[Diablo]

In the second video below, it appears the F tosses his bean bag at ~1:17 mark.  Before A37 recovered the kick, I didn't see any illegal touching by Team A.  B31 did muff the loose ball, but that should have resulted in an "start clock" (S2) or "legal touching" (S11), not a bean bag.
What gives?

2 games yesterday and 2 onside KO's with apparent early blocks by Team A.  The good news is apparently we zebras are once again the only ones who even realize something was not right.  Perhaps thanks are due to commentators who perpetuate the notion that blocking Team B off of the ball is a good play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXgpi5NxdrI

http://youtu.be/ohr_2dqTbuk

[TXMike]

2 choices:
1 - Like some other officials who will go nameless, he bags the spot of ANY touching, even if by Team B.

2 - He got confused and knew he had a touch and brain told him to drop the bag but did not compute that the touch was by B

[Wingman]

Hey we can get this!  We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier".   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU

Great twist on that classic line! Love it TXmike.

Yes, they nailed this one.. I can only suggest coaching changes on this one..  like maybe he needs to read the rule book and instuct his players on when then can and cannot block on a free kick. He obviously didn't know.

Ref signalled correctly too.. I initially had doubts that is was S19, but that would be it. Nice job.

In case you want to see that classic line.. here's a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdZKCh6RsU

[sj_31]

Q2 10:32 (I believe) in Chick-Fil-A bowl last night. Not only a block before Team A is eligible to touch ball, but pretty nasty low block.

[Timer]

Q2 10:32 (I believe) in Chick-Fil-A bowl last night. Not only a block before Team A is eligible to touch ball, but pretty nasty low block.

I agree.  Four guys officiating the ball/touch, none officiating other action.

[TXMike]

The play last night

http://youtu.be/UJWDe20I_fE

[MJT]

The play last night

http://youtu.be/UJWDe20I_fE

Not good. On an onside kick, we need to have offside called as a very tight plane. It looks like #27 may have been offside, but that is a tough one. Either the low block OR blocking before eligible to touch the ball should have been called, OR BOTH!!

[TxSkyBolt]

If that were called could we penalize 15 yards and rekick?

[TXMike]

Great point!!!  This takes us back to the play earlier in the season where a gunner on a punt committed an act that many of us believe could have been called either of 2 fouls.   I think this is a very similar deal.  It could be either of two fouls although the obvious choice is the 15 yarder over the 5 yarder.  SInce A was in legal possession there is no way B is going to get the ball so there will have to be a rekick.

[MJT]

Great point!!!  This takes us back to the play earlier in the season where a gunner on a punt committed an act that many of us believe could have been called either of 2 fouls.   I think this is a very similar deal.  It could be either of two fouls although the obvious choice is the 15 yarder over the 5 yarder.  SInce A was in legal possession there is no way B is going to get the ball so there will have to be a rekick.

In the play you posted Mike, http://youtu.be/UJWDe20I_fE   team A is not in legal possession at the end of the down, so 6-1-8 comes into play...

Any foul by team A other than KCI can be enforced from the dead ball spot. Since the illegal touching is the DBSpot, the penalty can be enforced from there in this play.  Team B will have the ball, 5 yards from DBSpot if the offside was called, and 15 yards from DBSpot if the IBW was called. They will not have to have team A rekick and team B will have the ball since team A committed ILT and the subsequent dead ball belongs to team B.

[TXMike]

There was no illegal touch. The touch was legal as was the recovery

[MJT]

There was no illegal touch. The touch was legal as was the recovery

You're correct Mike. It was not illegal touching. I was confusing team A not being able to block with not being able to touch. Since A is in legal possession at the end of the play, either foul could only be enforced from the PSpot and thus a rekick is needed. Good catch Mike!

[centexsports]

In my midweek call to a 5a coach this year, he told me the team he was playing onside kicked about 90% of the time.   He told me that he was going to have his front five stand just across the fifty and when the kick was made have them step across the fifty and not move.   When they were hit by the kicking team, he expected us to throw a flag and give his team the ball.   

I told him we would watch for this play and call it as appropriate but that his team would have to recover to get the ball if there was no first touching by the kicking team.

BTW:  He never did this in the game.

[Diablo]

That was flawless execution of the kick.  The kicker stubbed the ball down and got just enough forward force such that the ball bounced along at the same speed as the kicker ran.  Consequently, the ball and kicker got to the A-40 at the same time.  Hey Atlanta Blue, was that kicker one of your pupils?

I think one of the major obstacles in accurately applying 6-1-2-g is the calling official has to see two events more or less simultaneously - a Team A player blocking a B player and the location of the ball or who touched it.  Those make the call doubly difficult.

Do most conferences still have their crews officiate Team B players on free kicks?  I'm thinking that officiating Team A players might be a better mechanic, especially during obvious onside kick situations.  Also, I wondering if the B & U ought to come onto the field of play as soon as the ball is kick.  That might give them a better angle to see blocks and the ball in same field of vision.

[Atlanta Blue]

That was flawless execution of the kick.  The kicker stubbed the ball down and got just enough forward force such that the ball bounced along at the same speed as the kicker ran.  Consequently, the ball and kicker got to the A-40 at the same time.  Hey Atlanta Blue, was that kicker one of your pupils?

No, he's from Florida, but ironically, both my kicker and I met and talked with him on Tuesday of this past week.  My kicker was playing in a post season All Star game, and we took them to see Auburn's practice in the Dome.  Being drawn to kickers, and with kickers having more "free time" during practice, we had time to meet and talk with him.  Real nice kid, and yes, he did a great job on this kick.  That was a very difficult kick to get that kind of control and timing, and was very well done.

As for the offside call, when seen in slow motion, maybe so, but in real time, that was so close you would never see it.  The contact on the blocks is before the ball goes 10 yards, clear in slow motion, but again, close and near impossible to see in real time.

But the BBW was clear as day.  If nothing else, there should have been a flag on that one.

I was working as the Official Scorer for that game last night.  The kick caught everyone by surprise, and came very quickly after the RFP.  On the next kick, immediately after the RFP, the kicker ran forward with the team still huddling and faked like he was going to kick it.  I'm GUESSING he had the green light to do so if UVA wasn't paying attention, but they were, so he pulled up at the line, and Auburn went to a "regular" kick formation.

You name it, we had it last night, including two blocked punts, one out of the back of the end zone.  It was a wild one.

[TXMike]

Actually the offside was obvious at the get go.  Guys in the "meeting room" were calling for it before there was even a replay shown.  On onside and pooch kicks there is NO tolerance for breaking the plane before kicked.  Hard to see how the official on that side could have even seen the kicker when the ball was kicked (which is a clue). 

[TexDoc]

Great twist on that classic line! Love it TXmike.

Yes, they nailed this one.. I can only suggest coaching changes on this one..  like maybe he needs to read the rule book and instuct his players on when then can and cannot block on a free kick. He obviously didn't know.

Ref signalled correctly too.. I initially had doubts that is was S19, but that would be it. Nice job.

In case you want to see that classic line.. here's a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdZKCh6RsU

This video is from my crew a couple of years ago.  Great call by some good officials.  And believe it or not, I knew the signal!