Author Topic: "But I have options!!!!"  (Read 13062 times)

Offline SCHSref

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"But I have options!!!!"
« on: August 29, 2014, 11:51:14 AM »
Had this happen two nights ago in a JV game

KO from 40.  Kick goes OOB without being touched.  Flag thrown.  Ref goes to captain and tells him options and asks what he wants to do.  Captain tells him to back it up 5 re-kick.  Coach on sidelines goes nuts when it is explained to him.  Tells the crew, "I have options!"  The umpire (I know, should have been referee) tells him that the options are forfeited after the captain makes the decision.  Coach looks at us and says, "You're going to call that on a Wednesday night???"
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2014, 11:54:18 AM »
If it's not obvious, ask the coach, not the kid.  I don't care if it's Wednesday or Friday or Sunday.

If for some reason you feel you have to ask the kid, do so within earshot of the coach so he can "advise".

Offline red viking

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2014, 12:29:02 PM »
I had one of these recently. The captain chose 3rd and 10 instead of 2nd and 22 (holding). I asked "are you sure" and he didn't hesitate and repeated himself. The coach got P.O.'d but it was too late. I'm sure the captain learned a lesson. I have no problem with this but in retrospect I wish we would have done a better job of making the coach aware of the situation so he could tell his captain what to do. Maybe through the wing official.

They intercepted the ball on the next play so I think they got over it.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 12:35:30 PM by red viking »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2014, 12:38:10 PM »
If for some reason you feel you have to ask the kid, do so within earshot of the coach so he can "advise".

ALWAYS ask the Captain, that's his JOB, and the respect you pay him for being a Captain can pay enormous dividends elsewhere during the game, when, and if, you might need assistance.  Of course, whenever possible and especially with confusing or complex choices, handle explanations within earshot of the HC, so he can offer guidance when necessary.

NFHS 2-32 "Player Designations":

Art. 5:  A captain of a team is a player designated to represent his team during:
        a. The pregame and overtime cointoss (Limit of 4 captains in uniform)
        b.  Penalty desicions following a foul.       
        c.  Ball placement on a Try, KO, after a safety, after a FC, after an awarded FC,, after a touchback
            and to start an overtime period

If a Captain (alone) seems to be making a "bad choice", there's nothing wrong with suggesting, "Perhaps I didn't explain your choices carefully enough, allow me to review them again, slowly....."
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 12:43:31 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Jim D.

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2014, 12:41:20 PM »
In high school it's the captain that makes the choice.  Therefore it's up to the coach to make sure that the captain looks to him for the decision if that's how the coach wants it done. 

I'll ask the captain, and try to make sure he understands and I'll help him as much as I can.  If he wants to look to the coach for help, that's fine with me.  But if he understands the choice and chooses 3& 10, we move on.


Offline Rulesman

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2014, 12:42:00 PM »
The R (with help from the wings) should be looking at the coach to be sure he understands the options before taking the answer from the kid. Even many of the big boys do it that way. It keeps the crew out of the soup.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2014, 01:38:15 PM »
There's nothing in the rules that specifies where the captain has to be when he makes his choice.  If it's something complex, I'll walk him toward his sideline so his coach can hear.

Offline NoVaBJ

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 01:50:04 PM »
A few years back, K, down 4 with 10 seconds remaining, attempts an onside free kick, commits kick catching interference, and recovers.  I find R's captain, walk him directly in front of his head coach, and present the three options then available under NFHS rules, with these head motions:

K has committed kick catching interference.

 :!# You can decline the penalty and take the result of the play--they get the ball. :!#

or . . .

 :!# You can move them back 15 yards and make them kick again.  :!#

OR . . .

 yEs: YOU CAN ACCEPT AN AWARDED FAIR CATCH AT THE SPOT OF THE FOUL.  WOULD YOU LIKE TO ACCEPT AN AWARDED FAIR CATCH AT THE SPOT OF THE FOUL?  I'M AWARDING YOU A FAIR CATCH AT THE SPOT OF THE FOUL!  yEs:

Offline prab

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2014, 02:15:21 PM »
Consider the possibility that when we bend over backwards to insure that the captain does not make a "poor" choice, we are assisting his team AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER TEAM!  NFHS could eliminate this problem by changing the penalty enforcement procedure to having the referee ask the head coach what his choice is.  BUT THE NFHS HAS NOT DONE SO!! 

This echoes the discussion of days gone by on this forum where we discussed "helping" captains make a "good" choice (defer or receive) of options after the coin toss instead of a "poor" choice (kick).

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 02:25:39 PM »
when we bend over backwards to insure that the captain does not make a "poor" choice, we are assisting his team AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER TEAM!

Interesting interpretation of this scenario.

But to me, it is simply preventative officiating. 

Offline NoVaBJ

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 02:28:24 PM »
Consider the possibility that when we bend over backwards to insure that the captain does not make a "poor" choice, we are assisting his team AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER TEAM! 

I don't disagree in theory, but considering the game involved and the atmosphere of my then-Association, had there been any other outcome, I would have been That Guy.  I have been That Guy before.  None of us like being That Guy.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2014, 02:37:22 PM »
Explain options, to the extent the party your explaining is certain to understands them, seems to fall short of "bending over backwards", and as a service available to both teams at all times provides neither an advantage nor disadvantage to either team. Assuring an appropriate decision is rendered assesses no additional expense to either team.

Recognizing NFHS contests are played by interscholastic athletes, the NFHS places emphasis on the overall learning opportunities available, including handling of responsibilities which are designated to team Captains.

Learning to deal with and discharge the responsibilities of a team Captain is a valuable teaching opportunity, apparently, NFHS considers worthy of minor complications that may occasionally arise, but  considering the variety of easy and innocuous adjustments readily available to avoid such complications are of little practical concern. 

Assisting ANYONE to make a proper selection of a choice they are fully entitled to make is a valuable service rather than a problem.     

Offline Rulesman

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2014, 02:38:09 PM »
No, we are not making a decision at the expense of the other team. The other team committed the foul.

"Coach, I would do the same thing for you if the shoe were on the other foot."
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 07:27:39 PM by Rulesman »
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2014, 05:19:45 PM »
If it's not obvious, ask the coach, not the kid.  I don't care if it's Wednesday or Friday or Sunday.

If for some reason you feel you have to ask the kid, do so within earshot of the coach so he can "advise".

Could not agree more.  Even at the college and pro level you can see the R looking to the sideline for the coach's choice on the non-obvious enforcements.

In your pre-game with the head coach, let him know that on non-obvious enforcements, you will let him know the options.  When talking to the captains before the game, let them know you're going to let their coach know the options and that he can consult with his coach.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 11:10:42 AM by Patrick E. »

cbailey

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2014, 01:23:29 PM »
If it's obvious, enforce the foul and move on.  If it's not obvious, save yourself a lot of trouble and ask the coach.  Don't get the captains involved.  We all know that for the most part, the "captains" are simply the guys that get to go out for the coin toss that particular game.  They have no idea what to do on a foul and are going to be looking to their coach anyway.  Why not just cut out the middle man?  I don't care what the freaking rule/mechanics book says.  Use some common sense. 

Offline prab

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2014, 02:04:08 PM »
  I don't care what the freaking rule/mechanics book says.   

I guess that about sums it up!  What other rules and/or mechanics don't you care about? 

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2014, 05:52:36 PM »
Why not just cut out the middle man?  I don't care what the freaking rule/mechanics book says.  Use some common sense.

Wow! Forrest Guump was right, "Stupid is as stupid does"

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2014, 07:37:27 PM »
I always work through the coach. Will continue to work through the coach. It keeps my crew out of trouble and the coaches appreciate it. You're free to do different.

Online CalhounLJ

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"But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2014, 04:44:37 PM »
What's the difference between asking the coach to make the decision or the official making the decision for the captain? At no place in the rule book does it ever say "if the captain makes a stupid decision, just ignore hime and do what you know is right."  That thinking reaches the pinnacle of arrogance. If you're going to go by the rules, go by the rules. Give the captain his options and let him make up his mind.  If however, you want to do the wise thing, ask the coach.


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Offline bbeagle

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2014, 06:48:59 PM »
If you're going to go by the rules, go by the rules. Give the captain his options and let him make up his mind.  If however, you want to do the wise thing, ask the coach.

Reminds me about coin tosses. I've run into a few arrogant white hats in my time. Red team wins the coin toss, referee asks him if he wants to kick, receive, defer or choose a side. He says kick. White hats allows him to do this, and gets into an argument before the 2nd half with the Red team coach and players where they can't receive the ball. White hat says this is a 'learning lesson' for the Red team. Sigh. The players probably never knew the rule in the first place, and the white hat is just being a jackass with his 'rules knowledge'. I bet the players and coaches instead of taking this as a 'lesson' take this as the referees are jackasses.

I simply ask the captain if he wants the ball. If he says no, I ask him 'Do you want to defer to the 2nd half?'. Causes a lot less confusion. If he says 'kick', I tell him 'Are you sure? It probably means you'll kick off both halves and not receive the ball in the 2nd half.'

We have one white hat who loves to show his 'rules knowledge' asking the captain after every fair catch 'Do you want the ball or do you want to kick?' The captains look quizzical, and he then says 'You want the ball?' which they then reply 'Yes'.


Offline prab

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2014, 11:49:22 PM »
If you're going to go by the rules, go by the rules. 

You make it sound like "going by the rules" is optional. 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 08:26:20 AM by prab »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2014, 08:34:19 AM »
We ask the captains "what are you going to do if you win the toss?" before we take them onto the field. If they say Receive or Defer, no problem. If they say Kick (very rare, but it does happen), we clarify with the coach. That allows us to avoid awkward situations on the field.
"Never argue with stupid people.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2014, 09:49:46 AM »
We ask the captains "what are you going to do if you win the toss?" before we take them onto the field. If they say Receive or Defer, no problem. If they say Kick (very rare, but it does happen), we clarify with the coach. That allows us to avoid awkward situations on the field.

Goes to show, just a little common sense and practical application goes a long, LONG way in avoiding anyone making an unnecessary mistake or looking foolish.

Offline VALJ

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2014, 08:27:04 AM »
We ask the captains "what are you going to do if you win the toss?" before we take them onto the field. If they say Receive or Defer, no problem. If they say Kick (very rare, but it does happen), we clarify with the coach. That allows us to avoid awkward situations on the field.

In addition to that, when I give the options to the captain whose team won the toss, I ask him "do you want to receive, or defer until the second half?"  Starting a game with a team winning a toss and choosing to kick - rather than defer - is a sure way to make things tense with one sideline right from the start.  A bit of preventive officiating can save a lot of grief for the rest of the night.

Offline bossman72

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2014, 09:11:39 AM »
Keep in mind, no coach will EVER complain that you asked him.  He will certainly complain if you ask a captain and he makes a dumb choice.

...I know what the manual says, but that part of the manual hasn't been changed since 1907