Author Topic: Double Kick  (Read 2402 times)

Offline fudilligas

  • *
  • Posts: 82
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-0
Double Kick
« on: September 18, 2017, 06:50:26 AM »
The attached link shows a field goal being blocked and while the ball is loose the kicker re-kicks the ball through the uprights  ^flag...officials allow field goal. hEaDbAnG hEaDbAnG  It looks like they are totally confused and don't know what to do...which is obvious from the result..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/college-football/2017/9/16/16320880/blocked-field-goal-rules-ncaa-d

My question is:  What if the holder places a hand on the loose ball, to stop it from rolling,l and then the kicker rekicks...Is that still an illegal kick even the ball is not loose and is controlled by the holder....

Not that this would happen, but stranger things have...

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +332/-243
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 07:06:40 AM »
Discussed at length on the NCAA board.
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=13473.0
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline fudilligas

  • *
  • Posts: 82
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-0
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 07:42:38 AM »
Discussed at length on the NCAA board.
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=13473.0

I did not see in that discussion the situation where the holder now places a hand on the ball to control it and then the kicker re-kicks the field goal....is this legel in high school or is it still an illegal kick

Offline fudilligas

  • *
  • Posts: 82
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-0
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 08:17:08 AM »
just answered my own question....when holder gains control of loose ball with knee on ground the ball becomes dead and down is over... ^no.....but if the kicker picked the ball up and performed a legal drop kick the field goal would count. ^good....is this correct according to federation rules
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 08:22:18 AM by fudilligas »

Offline prab

  • *
  • Posts: 594
  • FAN REACTION: +33/-44
  • Wherever you go, there you are!
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 09:14:19 AM »
K1's place kick FG attempt is blocked and ball remains behind the LOS.  K1 then picks up the ball and executes a successful drop kick FG.  I would consider my officiating career to be complete just to see this play!

Offline bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 467
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-31
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 09:22:53 AM »
I did not see in that discussion the situation where the holder now places a hand on the ball to control it and then the kicker re-kicks the field goal....is this legel in high school or is it still an illegal kick

The holder does NOT need to have his knee on the ground. There is no requirement of this anywhere in the rule book.

2-32-7: A holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking tee.

He could be standing- leaning over and holding the ball on the ground as well. In this case, a second kick WOULD be legal, but only on a field goal try. On an extra point, once it becomes apparent that the kick will not score, the play is over. So, a blocked kick on an extra point that comes back to a player is dead, but a blocked kick on a field goal that comes back to a player is still live and can be run, passed or kicked.




Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 579
  • FAN REACTION: +33/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 09:26:23 AM »
In fed rules, I don't think the kick has to remain behind the LOS, it just has to be recovered there. So, in an even crazier scenario, the kick is popped straight up, hits the ground just over the linemen 5 yards down field, then bounces back to the kicker who then drop kicks it again.

We might be talking Bollywood level physics here, but within the rules.

Even better is if the backwards ricochet is due to it hitting a K player downfield -- then you get to negate a field goal due to first touching of a scrimmage kick.

Offline Ump33

  • *
  • Posts: 208
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-2
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 09:37:23 AM »
The holder does NOT need to have his knee on the ground. There is no requirement of this anywhere in the rule book.

2-32-7: A holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking tee.

He could be standing- leaning over and holding the ball on the ground as well. In this case, a second kick WOULD be legal, but only on a field goal try. On an extra point, once it becomes apparent that the kick will not score, the play is over. So, a blocked kick on an extra point that comes back to a player is dead, but a blocked kick on a field goal that comes back to a player is still live and can be run, passed or kicked.
Actually, he must have a knee on the ground to satisfy Scrimmage Kick Formation and "free numbering exception" (7-2-5b Exception 1).
2-14-2 . . . A scrimmage kick formation is one in which no player is in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and at the snap, either:
a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind that player in position to attempt a place kick, or

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2017, 11:04:27 AM »
Actually, he must have a knee on the ground to satisfy Scrimmage Kick Formation and "free numbering exception" (7-2-5b Exception 1).
2-14-2 . . . A scrimmage kick formation is one in which no player is in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and at the snap, either:
a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind that player in position to attempt a place kick, or

If the holder is on a knee at the snap, he can rise (say an errant snap causes him to) and hold without a knee on the ground, or hold without a knee on the ground on an attempted 2nd kick and still meet the requirements of a scrimmage kick formation. He just has to have a knee on the ground at the snap if he wants the benefits of a scrimmage kick formation. If there are no numbering exceptions and the kicking team doesn't want snapper protection, then his knee doesn't need to be down at all.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 11:12:01 AM by VA Official »

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +332/-243
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2017, 11:41:40 AM »
Actually, he must have a knee on the ground to satisfy Scrimmage Kick Formation and "free numbering exception" (7-2-5b Exception 1).
2-14-2 . . . A scrimmage kick formation is one in which no player is in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and at the snap, either:
a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind that player in position to attempt a place kick, or
You don't have to be in a "scrimmage kick formation" to legally attempt a field goal.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline Ump33

  • *
  • Posts: 208
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-2
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 12:00:28 PM »
You don't have to be in a "scrimmage kick formation" to legally attempt a field goal.
I did not say you did, I was replying to the statement "The holder does NOT need to have his knee on the ground. There is no requirement of this anywhere in the rule book."
If "free numbering exception" is used per 7-2-5b Exception 1, the holder must have a knee on the ground per 2-14-2a

Offline fudilligas

  • *
  • Posts: 82
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-0
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2017, 04:50:35 PM »
the way i understand the holder situation, and i may be wrong, is that if the holder has to rise to get a bad snap he is allowed to go down to a knee and hold the ball without penalty...however, if he fumbles the ball, rises, and then goes back to a knee the ball is now dead....does this last situation apply to a blocked kick (not PAT) with the holder recovering the ball and going back down...

not that this will happen but the discussion is good

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2017, 05:49:13 PM »
the way i understand the holder situation, and i may be wrong, is that if the holder has to rise to get a bad snap he is allowed to go down to a knee and hold the ball without penalty...however, if he fumbles the ball, rises, and then goes back to a knee the ball is now dead....does this last situation apply to a blocked kick (not PAT) with the holder recovering the ball and going back down...

not that this will happen but the discussion is good

In a way but that's not directly the reason no. The reason is the last situation you gave isn't covered under the 4-2-2a exceptions, and neither is a holder with a knee on the ground recovering a blocked kick. Since neither of those are exceptions to 4-2-2a, the ball is dead.

Online CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 610
  • FAN REACTION: +18/-21
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Double Kick
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2017, 07:28:32 PM »
I did not say you did, I was replying to the statement "The holder does NOT need to have his knee on the ground. There is no requirement of this anywhere in the rule book."
If "free numbering exception" is used per 7-2-5b Exception 1, the holder must have a knee on the ground per 2-14-2a
The OP is not about the numbering exception or snapper protection. It's about being able to kick the ball a second time. There's nothing in the rule book that requires the holder to have his/her knee on the ground while he's holding it for a kick. I think that's rulemans argument.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +332/-243
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: Double Kic
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2017, 07:58:18 PM »
...I was replying to the statement "The holder does NOT need to have his knee on the ground. There is no requirement of this anywhere in the rule book."
If "free numbering exception" is used per 7-2-5b Exception 1, the holder must have a knee on the ground per 2-14-2a
I know what you are saying but you just contradicted yourself.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline skip1

  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-1
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 10:19:34 AM »
We all agree that the second kick is an illegal kick. I would add that R has a choice of accepting the penalty or a touch back. The illegal kick retains the same status as prior to the illegal kick. When the ball crosses R's goal line we have a TB.

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2017, 11:15:39 AM »
We all agree that the second kick is an illegal kick. I would add that R has a choice of accepting the penalty or a touch back. The illegal kick retains the same status as prior to the illegal kick. When the ball crosses R's goal line we have a TB.

Here's an interesting thought: does the ball crossing the goal line actually produce a TB, or is this only a TB when it touched OOB behind the goal line? We initially had a legal kick, and the ball was loose the entire time. There was a subsequent illegal kick, which are usually treated the same as fumbles. I think we have to rule a TB once it crosses the goal line because the first legal scrimmage kick / field-goal attempt never ended and was grounded. This is significant because of the potential situation where the ball stays in the EZ after the second kick.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 11:22:25 AM by VA Official »

Offline jmckb99

  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Double Kick
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2017, 12:22:08 PM »
We all agree that the second kick is an illegal kick. I would add that R has a choice of accepting the penalty or a touch back. The illegal kick retains the same status as prior to the illegal kick. When the ball crosses R's goal line we have a TB.

I agree that in this video example it's illegal, but you can kick it twice, as long as it isn't a loose ball on the ground. A second kick is legal on punts and field goals only. If the kicker were to get the ball back he can kick it a second time as long as it never crosses the neutral zone. On a field goal attempt, the only way that could happen is if it would be if he picked it back up and then drop kicked it. I don't see anyone holding it without putting their knee down or for that matter having the time to do so.