Author Topic: UIL or TASO  (Read 333857 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #300 on: August 29, 2010, 08:37:52 PM »
UIL appears to be part of UT's   Division of Diversity and Community Engagement (DDCE)   http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/ddce/strategic_list.php

That suggests Dr B answers to Dr. Gregory J. Vincent, Vice President for Diversity and Community Engagement
http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/about/profiles.php

General info re UIL records and budget   http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/constitution/subchapters/10_11subP_R.pdf

UIL salary info:
http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/the-university-of-texas-at-austin/departments/uil/1528/



« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 09:05:25 PM by TXMike »

ballhog

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #301 on: August 29, 2010, 09:58:42 PM »
How does the TEA and the commissioner of education figure into this? Amazing that something created to facilitate debate amongst the public schools has grown into a regulatory "agency" without legislative oversight or sunset review.   ^flag

Offline Etref

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #302 on: August 30, 2010, 07:42:27 AM »
UIL appears to be part of UT's   Division of Diversity and Community Engagement (DDCE)   http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/ddce/strategic_list.php

That suggests Dr B answers to Dr. Gregory J. Vincent, Vice President for Diversity and Community Engagement
http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/about/profiles.php

General info re UIL records and budget   http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/constitution/subchapters/10_11subP_R.pdf

UIL salary info:
http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/the-university-of-texas-at-austin/departments/uil/1528/







Any idea of when this became effective. If you click on the tab for UIL it shows the UIL website to be moving to the UT site as of 9-1-2010.
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Offline Getting Fat

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #303 on: August 30, 2010, 08:51:35 AM »
From the court's opinion (regarding the UIL as a part of UT):

section 33.083 of the education code, entitled “Interscholastic Leagues,” specifically addresses the
existence and status of the UIL, stating:

(b) The [UIL] is a part of The University of Texas at Austin and must submit its rules
and procedures to the commissioner [of education] for approval or disapproval. The
funds belonging to the [UIL] shall be deposited with The University of Texas at
Austin for the benefit of the league and shall be subject to audits by The University
of Texas at Austin, The University of Texas System, and the state auditor. Copies
of annual audits shall be furnished, on request, to members of the legislature.

Tex. Educ. Code Ann. § 33.083(b) (emphasis added); see also id. § 5.001(3) (West Supp. 2009)
(defining “Commissioner” as “the commissioner of education”).
Based on the plain language of section 33.083, the UIL is a component part of The
University of Texas at Austin (“UT-Austin”).

- Now, I think TASO's argument, in addition to those previously laid out, is that since the UIL is a state agency the UIL must follow formal rule making procedures.  Not sure if those were followed in this case.

rickref

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #304 on: August 30, 2010, 10:05:40 AM »
They were not gettingfat. Nice points.

Offline JDM

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #305 on: August 30, 2010, 03:38:14 PM »
August 30, 2010

One of the UIL's defenses on the TASO litigation is their position of sovereign immunity. On Friday the Third Court of Appeals in Austin issued a decision that said the UIL is a part of University of Texas, Austin and is protected from litigation. As a result, our suit against the UIL as it was originally filed was dismissed.

Many have incorrectly assumed that this ruling ends our campaign to protect TASO's status as the only independent provider of High School Sports Officials both to the UIL and other Texas High School Associations.
The legal status of the UIL is not the root cause of our concern. Whether the UIL is a state agency or a volunteer organization of public school districts makes no difference. The decision by the Third Court of Appeals very clearly states that in this ruling, the court makes no comment on the merit of the facts of the suit. They go on to explain that even though the UIL cannot be sued as a State Agency, TASO should have sued individuals acting in their official capacity.
Over the past few weeks, I have had several meetings with Dr. Breithaupt and Tony Timmons to discuss settlement possibilities. Even though an agreement has not been reached, all parties agree that progress is taking place. The obvious questions after last week's ruling is can those discussions continue.
In a meeting of the TASO President's Council yesterday, your President's unanimously approved filing a new law suit today as specified in the Third Court of Appeals ruling. However, before taking that action, they directed me to contact the Dr. Breithaupt and see if he was willing to continue our settlement discussions. I am pleased to report that he was both willing and anxious to continue to seek a resolution to this dispute.
As a result the discussions to reach a mutually acceptable agreement between TASO and the UIL will continue and TASO will not be filing a new suit as long as the UIL does not initiate their registration process of TASO members.
Both the UIL and TASO are hopeful that this dispute can be resolved quickly for the betterment of TASO members, UIL member schools and most importantly the Texas High School Student Athlete.
Regards,
Mike

Michael Fitch
Executive Director


Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #306 on: August 30, 2010, 03:45:47 PM »
I knew we had the right guy as E.D.!!!  Way to go Mike!

Offline Etref

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #307 on: August 30, 2010, 03:48:04 PM »
I agree, with one caveat. Negotiations are great but UIL has a history of not living up to what they say.


The other caveat, I think Timmons has to go!
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Offline TexDoc

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #308 on: August 30, 2010, 03:57:42 PM »
I agree, with one caveat. Negotiations are great but UIL has a history of not living up to what they say.


The other caveat, I think Timmons has to go!

I agree with both of those.  One should be cautious when negotiating with snakes.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #309 on: August 30, 2010, 04:24:08 PM »
Replace TT with Mike Fitch, then perhaps we have a deal.

Offline DallasLJ

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #310 on: August 30, 2010, 04:46:52 PM »
I am still not happy about paying a registration fee to simply offer my services to the local school district. Until the Band contest judge, orchestra concert judge, science fair judge, etc., also have to pay to judge school contests, we should not have to pay either.

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #311 on: August 30, 2010, 05:02:49 PM »
Definitely NOT in the TT fan club but they can hire whomever they want. As long as he is coordinating only and I do not have to answer to him in anyway, so be it.  I can handle that.

Offline Arbitrator

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #312 on: August 30, 2010, 05:03:19 PM »
 ^flag

I hope that this "Neville Chamberlain" approach on the part of TASO doesn't end up exploding in our proverbial face! All that you really need to do is to examine the track record of the UIL since Breithaupt has been annointed as its ED. Since the incumbancy of King Charles, virtually nothing has been done favorable to TASO. Why should we expect any more out of him now? I'm sorry, Gentlemen! But he has a discernible track record. He had a hidden agenda~ but now that agenda of his has become most overt! He won't rest until he gets his way, and that is the total annihilation and dissolution of TASO. Isn't it rather strange that nothing of this magnitude ever occurred on the UIL watches of Drs. Marshall or Farney~ only King Charles!

I too believe that Fitch has the potential to be a great UIL Director of Officiating, but you can rest assured that the Good UIL Dr. will never ever attempt to replace or dismiss his Dancing Monkey.

But the real question remains: If the 32 TASO Football Chapter Presidents all mandated their approval for the continuation of the lawsuit, then why is the State going against their wishes and seeking some form of reconcilliation with the "pit of snakes?" What possible bag of crumbs is TASO expecting from the UIL by placating to their desire to forestall the lawsuit?
And exactly how does Mr. Schumann feel about this particular course of action?

At this point, I am beginning to feel more pessimistic than ever about the future of TASO. I, for one, will continue to pray for its preservation. Without it, Texas high school officiating will never really be quite the same!   z^
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 06:18:41 PM by arbitrator »

504coach

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #313 on: August 30, 2010, 06:40:30 PM »
I agree with arbitrator... I feel sold out by TASO.  Once the UIL gets an inch they will take a mile mark my words.  Unfortunately the TASO powers that be have a very short term mentality.  I will not get on my lack of a long term vision soap box here.  The true effects of this move will be measured in years not weeks.  No more gate fees.  I am glad some of you SR. members got to take advantage of those.  Every one of you that gets a gate check this year that is over $100 make sure and frame it.  It will be the last one you see.

crybaby

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #314 on: August 30, 2010, 07:42:34 PM »
I just wish we could go back to the 2000 pay scale, until you work a game and received $1200 you just don't know how good you got it. Funny thing is that the UIL knew they made a mistake and still honored it. TASO and Fitch I believe are putting up a good front but I believe they know they are whooped. Nice bluff, but what if the UIL calls??? Who is gonna pay for this round of the lawsuit Fitch? I would wait until January before I started the next round of litigation, gotta get the dues in to pay for it. Cmon the UIL is smarter than that!!

Offline JasonTX

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #315 on: August 30, 2010, 09:33:36 PM »
Or maybe Dr. B is more scared of having himself named in the suit.  Is UT willing to foot the bill for that?  UT may be getting tired of all this negitive publicity.  Until we know what discussions are taking place it may be that UIL just will attend the TASO board meetings and be more active in TASO decisions.  I know that UIL has always had an invitation to the meetings but from what I gather those seats were often not being used.

Offline blindref757

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #316 on: August 30, 2010, 09:37:44 PM »
^flag

I hope that this "Neville Chamberlain" approach on the part of TASO doesn't end up exploding in our proverbial face! All that you really need to do is to examine the track record of the UIL since Breithaupt has been annointed as its ED. Since the incumbancy of King Charles, virtually nothing has been done favorable to TASO. Why should we expect any more out of him now? I'm sorry, Gentlemen! But he has a discernible track record. He had a hidden agenda~ but now that agenda of his has become most overt! He won't rest until he gets his way, and that is the total annihilation and dissolution of TASO. Isn't it rather strange that nothing of this magnitude ever occurred on the UIL watches of Drs. Marshall or Farney~ only King Charles!

I too believe that Fitch has the potential to be a great UIL Director of Officiating, but you can rest assured that the Good UIL Dr. will never ever attempt to replace or dismiss his Dancing Monkey.

But the real question remains: If the 32 TASO Football Chapter Presidents all mandated their approval for the continuation of the lawsuit, then why is the State going against their wishes and seeking some form of reconcilliation with the "pit of snakes?" What possible bag of crumbs is TASO expecting from the UIL by placating to their desire to forestall the lawsuit?
And exactly how does Mr. Schumann feel about this particular course of action?

At this point, I am beginning to feel more pessimistic than ever about the future of TASO. I, for one, will continue to pray for its preservation. Without it, Texas high school officiating will never really be quite the same!   z^

Not that it matters in your argument, but just to clarify.  It's not 32 TASO Football Chapter Presidents that voted...I believe it is the 6 TASO sport presidents.  I'm sure that they discussed this, and that Mike has their blessing to exhaust all efforts to keep this out of the court system if possible.  The only guarantee in the courts is that the lawyers will get paid...with money from you and me.  

Mike isn't going to negotiate a merger of TASO into the UIL.  The only way this negotiation works is if TASO gets to remain independent and UIL gets out of the officiating business.  It surely is cheaper to trash what has been done and layoff Timmons than it is to pay attorneys for another costly and long court battle.  Besides, if Timmons stays in place and the UIL wins, there is an immediate crisis because of the mass retirements that would result--especially in the Football division.

Offline Arbitrator

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #317 on: August 31, 2010, 07:03:42 AM »
Not that it matters in your argument, but just to clarify.  It's not 32 TASO Football Chapter Presidents that voted...I believe it is the 6 TASO sport presidents.  I'm sure that they discussed this, and that Mike has their blessing to exhaust all efforts to keep this out of the court system if possible.  The only guarantee in the courts is that the lawyers will get paid...with money from you and me.  

Mike isn't going to negotiate a merger of TASO into the UIL.  The only way this negotiation works is if TASO gets to remain independent and UIL gets out of the officiating business.  It surely is cheaper to trash what has been done and layoff Timmons than it is to pay attorneys for another costly and long court battle.  Besides, if Timmons stays in place and the UIL wins, there is an immediate crisis because of the mass retirements that would result--especially in the Football division.


 ^flag


Regardless of who gave Fitch their blessing to pursue this procedure, it is still not very logical to negotiate with someone who has had their knife at your throat for such a very long time. The intent of Dr. B., all along, has been to place high school officiating under the umbrella of the UIL much like the plurality of other states. This is chiefly because:

1. It places the UIL in full control of all facets of officiating and would be in full position to forestall any union-like activity on the part of the officials or their leadership.

2. The UIL would be in position to do away with the gate fee structure and major mileage modifications much as they have already done in 1204 for the other sports.

3. It is no secret that Breithaupt has long coveted bringing Texas into the National Federation fold, thereby making the Federation 100% compliant with all state organizations belonging.
There has been more than a little speculation that the Good UIL Dr. has been promised a seat on the National Frederation Board if he were to bring Texas to the Federation table. Now he will tell you that Texas will never ever veer away from NCAA football rules, but that being said, how many other promises has he not kept in his illustrious career? Mind you, he has a track record and an agenda.

And to add insult to injury, if you think that the Good Dr. is going to displace TT, then I'd like to offer you a plot of ground for sale that has the San Jacinto Monument on it. Those two are virtually joined at the hip, and are the very best of friends. How do you think TT got all of those state basketball tournament assignments?

In this whole foray of events, I'd still like to know how Gary Schumann feels about this course of action. Like so many of us who have diligently served TASO for so many years, I just hope and pray that we aren't being sold down the river by our state leadership!   z^

Offline TexDoc

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #318 on: August 31, 2010, 08:21:42 AM »
Any lawyer worth his salt is going to tell you that it is better to negotiate out of court than to spend time and money going back and forth, filing, appealing, over and over.  I would believe Mr. Schumann would agree.

UIL knows that TASO has footing with their lawsuit, so they need to listen.  They also are working on a very tight budget, obviously with all those high paid directors, so they should be looking for a way to mitigate lawyer's expenses.  My main issue with any negotiation between TASO and UIL is that it must be in a contract.  The UIL must not pull the Trojan horse routine.  I know Mike is smart enough to not let this happen.  They may think they can do a bait and switch and get what they want in the end, the death of TASO and an organization that works for officials first.

Another alternative is that TASO winds up being a football only entity, let the other sports go to the UIL.  Football, as the UIL and superintendents will agree, is not the problem.  It is all the other sports that seem to be jealous of the fees officials collect.  That is fixed by either not doing anything (which got us where we are), raising fees for other sports, or taking football to a flat fee.  I must say, I could care less how much a baseball umpire makes doing a game when there are 12 people in the stands.  They deserve a fair fee, but they are not going to be able to negotiate the same as what football officials get when the same school gets 8,000 to their games every Friday night.

An agreeable scenario would be for TASO to remain as a separate entity, but work more closely with the UIL.  TASO could supply all training as they have in the past.  That's what they are good at.  UIL could do the registration (for a very minimal fee) that simply means that an official is TASO certified and has passed a background check.  For that matter, UIL can keep the points and do the administrative part, they are probably better at that anyway.  TASO has historically done an abysmal job of keeping an accurate database.  (Partially in their defense, they can only keep records that they have received and some chapters are terrible at keeping and reporting data on their members).  This can work, but a major obstacle is TT.  There are not many football guys willing to work with that guy, with his posturing, yelling and general inability to bring a consensus (sounds like a jr high coach?).  I doubt he could sell water to someone in the Mojave desert without POURING someone off.

One thing we all have to remember about the fee structure for football, anything the UIL wants, they get.  They wanted registration for officials, and even after all of our collective efforts to keep that from happening, the legislative council passed it unanimously.  If they want to go to a flat fee for the football, it would be nothing more than the stroke of a pen for Dr. B.  He knows it, and we need to realize it.  Let's work together, and we can make it a better organization, keep a portion of gate receipts in the fee structure, and ensure that we keep using NCAA rules (the coaches would raise hell if UIL tried to go to NF).  If the UIL wants all sports other than football, as far as I'm concerned, they can have them.  Those other sports need to get their feces coagulated and get their members to fully support TASO.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 08:24:57 AM by TexDoc »

Cooter

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #319 on: August 31, 2010, 08:40:19 AM »
Mike isn't going to negotiate a merger of TASO into the UIL.  The only way this negotiation works is if TASO gets to remain independent and UIL gets out of the officiating business.  It surely is cheaper to trash what has been done and layoff Timmons than it is to pay attorneys for another costly and long court battle.  Besides, if Timmons stays in place and the UIL wins, there is an immediate crisis because of the mass retirements that would result--especially in the Football division.

So - TASO loses the lawsuit, goes into negotiation with UIL, and you honestly believe that now the UIL will have to get out of officiating business?  Really?  And who is more able to withstand another costly and long court battle - TASO or the University of Texas?  And oh yeah, TASO demands Timmons be laid off. 

Thats not what the E.D. is going to demand - otherwise he would be laughed out of the room.  I applaud Mr. Fitch for negotiating - TASO will give some ground - UIL will give some ground - that's what negotiation is.  And to those of you who feel this is your leadership selling you down the river - you just enjoy a fight and want to waller in it. 

There will NOT be a mass retirement of football officials.  If you think the sun will not come up without you in stripes, give it a try.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #320 on: August 31, 2010, 09:09:14 AM »
So - TASO loses the lawsuit

In your opinion!  All the ruling does is define who and how TASO needs to file their next lawsuit.  The reasons it was filed are very valid, and the UIL and their lawyers know it.  That's why they need to negotiate.

And, you need to find out how much money TASO has in the bank.  It may surprise you.  They have more expendable cash than the UIL, who has operated in the red for years, when you take out the money given to them by the TEA earmarked for drug testing.  I, for one, would rather see TASO spend every dime of it fighting the UIL than to fold up and go away.  Who gets that money then?  It cannot go to individuals and it will never go to the UIL, so we might as well give it to the lawyers in this fight.

Offline Etref

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #321 on: August 31, 2010, 09:36:05 AM »
In your opinion!  All the ruling does is define who and how TASO needs to file their next lawsuit.  The reasons it was filed are very valid, and the UIL and their lawyers know it.  That's why they need to negotiate.

And, you need to find out how much money TASO has in the bank.  It may surprise you.  They have more expendable cash than the UIL, who has operated in the red for years, when you take out the money given to them by the TEA earmarked for drug testing.  I, for one, would rather see TASO spend every dime of it fighting the UIL than to fold up and go away.  Who gets that money then?  It cannot go to individuals and it will never go to the UIL, so we might as well give it to the lawyers in this fight.



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Ed Belding

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #322 on: August 31, 2010, 09:37:55 AM »
Any lawyer worth his salt is going to tell you that it is better to negotiate out of court than to spend time and money going back and forth, filing, appealing, over and over.  I would believe Mr. Schumann would agree.
.....

An agreeable scenario would be for TASO to remain as a separate entity, but work more closely with the UIL.  TASO could supply all training as they have in the past.  That's what they are good at.  UIL could do the registration (for a very minimal fee) that simply means that an official is TASO certified and has passed a background check.  For that matter, UIL can keep the points and do the administrative part, they are probably better at that anyway.  TASO has historically done an abysmal job of keeping an accurate database.  (Partially in their defense, they can only keep records that they have received and some chapters are terrible at keeping and reporting data on their members).  .....


This is excellent advice to TASO and the UIL.  There is reason to believe the UIL will be willing to do this.  The UIL registration fee would be negotiated but the structure and duties you describe will work if TASO is willing to present that as a compromise.  I hope you are in a position to present this to TASO leadership.  I have shared similar suggestions to my TASO representative.  It is doable.


Quote
One thing we all have to remember about the fee structure for football, anything the UIL wants, they get.  They wanted registration for officials, and even after all of our collective efforts to keep that from happening, the legislative council passed it unanimously.  If they want to go to a flat fee for the football, it would be nothing more than the stroke of a pen for Dr. B.  He knows it, and we need to realize it.  Let's work together, and we can make it a better organization, keep a portion of gate receipts in the fee structure, and ensure that we keep using NCAA rules (the coaches would raise hell if UIL tried to go to NF).  If the UIL wants all sports other than football, as far as I'm concerned, they can have them.  Those other sports need to get their feces coagulated and get their members to fully support TASO.

I think most of us understand that there is no scenario that does not include the UIL as part of Texas High School football.  There is a possible doomsday scenario in that does not include TASO.  TASO will be working with the UIL if it doesn't commit suicide by being unwilling to negotiate in good faith.  The training and certification process for Texas High School football officials is a niche that TASO can and should fill.  Don't worry so much about UIL registration of officials aside from a fair and reasonable registration fee.  TASO should solidify and strengthen the education, training and certification process for football officials as the best provider of these services.  I believe the UIL would be happy to agree with this. 

We aren't going to win the battle to stop UIL registration of officials but TASO can own the training and certification process.  The open question is how much will it cost and how much should it cost, but in all honesty every member of every TASO chapter should ask the same question about their local chapter dues and TASO state dues... about what is reasonable and how is the money being used?

Cooter

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #323 on: August 31, 2010, 09:56:59 AM »
In your opinion! 

Not gonna split hairs with you - but the lawsuit was dismissed - that's a loss.  Yes, it can be filed again - correctly this time - maybe it should be.  But the original lawsuit is a loss, regardless of what slant anyone wants to put on it. 

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL or TASO
« Reply #324 on: August 31, 2010, 10:07:56 AM »
I say again, the lawsuit gave many of us at least 1 more season.  For that reason alone it was a win in my mind. It also showed UIL we were not going to all rollover like our basketbal brothers did. That likely is motivating their wllingness to now work with us.