Author Topic: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.  (Read 182149 times)

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UHateMe

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #125 on: December 22, 2010, 11:06:12 AM »
Isn't this all very simple?  And yes I am new to this board but not new to the game. 

The UIL has never been a friend to officials, except when it came to supporting a ruling or ejection.  Having been a part of such a proceeding in ATX, the UIL was very hard on the coach(es) for their stupidity and backed the officials 100%.

TASO has always been a middle man doing our bidding and accepting what the UIL hands down.  No matter what TASO really wants, driving directly into the UIL's bus is not the way to go get it.  Marky Mark and the H-Town Baseball Bunch tried that which may be why this situation is what it is today. 

If anything, lawyers will decide and we may all be better for it.  Turning on the lights makes all the roaches scatter.  Slow ones gets stepped on.

As for the hats, outside of Houston and Dallas what other chapters did not wear them?  There were 10 games.  If only 2 chapters (2 games) did not wear them, what does that really say about a dumb hat?  Don't give any one of us that junk about "well these ARE the 2 largest chapters" because honestly there are more officials not associated with these 2 chapters than are.

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #126 on: December 22, 2010, 12:35:44 PM »
Wellll......not that it much matters, but between them, Dallas and Houston account for 31% of all the football officials in the state. 

Offline Etref

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #127 on: December 22, 2010, 12:57:10 PM »
I do not know if all 10 crews were offered. We they at the 6 man, 1A & 2A venues? I really do not know. All of the discussion has been about what was seen on the tv broadcast.
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Offline Arbitrator

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #128 on: December 22, 2010, 01:09:52 PM »
Isn't this all very simple?  And yes I am new to this board but not new to the game.  

The UIL has never been a friend to officials, except when it came to supporting a ruling or ejection.  Having been a part of such a proceeding in ATX, the UIL was very hard on the coach(es) for their stupidity and backed the officials 100%.

TASO has always been a middle man doing our bidding and accepting what the UIL hands down.  No matter what TASO really wants, driving directly into the UIL's bus is not the way to go get it.  Marky Mark and the H-Town Baseball Bunch tried that which may be why this situation is what it is today.  

If anything, lawyers will decide and we may all be better for it.  Turning on the lights makes all the roaches scatter.  Slow ones gets stepped on.

As for the hats, outside of Houston and Dallas what other chapters did not wear them?  There were 10 games.  If only 2 chapters (2 games) did not wear them, what does that really say about a dumb hat?  Don't give any one of us that junk about "well these ARE the 2 largest chapters" because honestly there are more officials not associated with these 2 chapters than are.

 ^flag

Welcome to Refstripes! To my knowledge, only the Houston crew who did the Lake Travis-Denton Ryan game, and the Dallas crew who did the Daingerfield-Cameron Yoe game chose not to don the UIL hats primarily because of the codicle in the TASO uniforms section that mandates that no unapproved patches or lettering are to be worn on the officiating apparel! The other crews that did choose to wear the UIL hats did so in direct disregard to that codicle only "because the UIL asked them to wear the hats."

It would seem to me that had the UIL had been productively working in partnership with TASO in the years that they introduced their "funny little hats" and had asked the TASO State Board to allow the wearing of those hats in a championship venue, that TASO would have adopted the proposal with open arms. But since the UIL was definitely in the Breithaupt administration, there was little to no communication by the UIL on that subject matter, and  tiphat: Good Time Charlie just thinks, "those officials don't need any TASO approval to wear those things for us~ we'll just set them out on the dressing room table and, well, they'll get the message!"

While serving on the TASO State Board during that time, about the only communication we got out of the tiphat: Good UIL Dr. was his showing up at the Annual TASO Football State Convention, handing out a few of his UIL golf hats, taking some TASO hats and shirts in return, telling the TASO State Board and the General Assembly "what an absolutely fantastic job we were all doing working with the UIL" and what time was his "free" tee time scheduled for at the annual TASO Convention Golf Tournament.   z^
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 01:13:04 PM by arbitrator »

UHateMe

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #129 on: December 22, 2010, 01:46:08 PM »
Thank you for the welcome.

I must admit that I feel the codicil has little if anything to do with not wearing the hats.  Using it as a CYA would be more in line with the truth being a large amount of animosity towards the UIL.  Having the uniform policy to fall back on makes it easier than just saying (honestly) I do not like the UIL and I am not going to wear their hat.  100% agree with had the UIL and TASO relationship been on quality ground the hat issue would be no issue. 

The UIL did not supply the hats directly to the game officials.  The hats were delivered to the locker room prior to games by the official's host committee.  The committee member's exact comments were, "Here are the hats, do what you wish."  (yes i was in a locker room visiting friends)  To my knowledge, the UIL representative (TT who was not in the same locker room i was) said he will not and is not advocating or mandating anyone wear the hat.

GTC has been known to utilize his position to garner a free round of golf from TASO that is true.  I had the opportunity to play behind his group a few years ago and he took offense to mine being longer than his.  I told him no big deal.  TASO uses distance balls that must be bigger also.

UHateMe

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #130 on: December 22, 2010, 01:56:26 PM »
Wellll......not that it much matters, but between them, Dallas and Houston account for 31% of all the football officials in the state. 

Surely it matters, somewhere.

31% is not a majority.  Not even using Obamath.

Moreover, the UIL sees this also.  Losing 31% is just fine with the UIL.  Winning 69% is more important. 

All that being said, the entirety of the 31% is not "pro-TASO" just as the entirety of the 69% is not "pro-UIL".  The numbers really don't matter now that a judge will make the decision.

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #131 on: December 22, 2010, 02:06:24 PM »
Come on now, you are not dealing with a bunch of idiots here.   Do you think anyone here (or on Manor Rd for that matter) really believes UIL "wins" without that 31%???  If it were to come to this, do you think HS football could be even semi-officiated with 31% fewer officials than they have now?  Nobody is suggesting it will come to that but there is NO WAY UIL would be "fine", or more importantly, will the schools be fine, losing that 31%.

Offline Etref

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #132 on: December 22, 2010, 02:44:04 PM »
Thank you for the welcome.

I must admit that I feel the codicil has little if anything to do with not wearing the hats.  Using it as a CYA would be more in line with the truth being a large amount of animosity towards the UIL.  Having the uniform policy to fall back on makes it easier than just saying (honestly) I do not like the UIL and I am not going to wear their hat.  100% agree with had the UIL and TASO relationship been on quality ground the hat issue would be no issue. 

The UIL did not supply the hats directly to the game officials.  The hats were delivered to the locker room prior to games by the official's host committee.  The committee member's exact comments were, "Here are the hats, do what you wish."  (yes i was in a locker room visiting friends)  To my knowledge, the UIL representative (TT who was not in the same locker room i was) said he will not and is not advocating or mandating anyone wear the hat.

GTC has been known to utilize his position to garner a free round of golf from TASO that is true.  I had the opportunity to play behind his group a few years ago and he took offense to mine being longer than his.  I told him no big deal.  TASO uses distance balls that must be bigger also.


It is not a question of "don't like the UIL". It is a question about them trying to force us to join them and destroying the organization to which we belong. It has been said several times, but worth repeating. If the UIL had approached this with a better model, better deal for the officials, better training programs, etc. this might all be a mute point. Also had UIL approached TASO about wearing the hats it would not be an issue. There are many, many things that would not be "an issue" had there been better communication and spokesman for and from UIL.


Remember: Proper Planning Prevents HACK Poor Performance.
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Offline BankerRef

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #133 on: December 22, 2010, 03:44:42 PM »
The UIL did not supply the hats directly to the game officials.  The hats were delivered to the locker room prior to games by the official's host committee.  The committee member's exact comments were, "Here are the hats, do what you wish."  (yes i was in a locker room visiting friends)  To my knowledge, the UIL representative (TT who was not in the same locker room i was) said he will not and is not advocating or mandating anyone wear the hat.

I can assure you that your description is not completely accurate for each game or crew.  I don't doubt what you are saying was the case for the game you witnessed but it was not the case for all games.  I will agree with the general point of the comment that there was no undue pressure or coercion from the UIL to wear the hats.  But there was also no pressure from TASO to not wear them.  Because our fight is about much bigger issues than hats neither side (officially) made it a big deal and that's probably how we should leave it.

UHateMe

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #134 on: December 22, 2010, 04:03:19 PM »
@TXMike....if reread, I clearly said that not all of the 31% support TASO and not all of the 69% support the UIL.  Therefore, you could say a 69% to 31% majority could be, let me say again and louder COULD BE, "fine".  Since clearly you are attempting to deal in reality just as I have been, when it is all over, there will be some fall out no matter the victor.  Agreed?  For the record, nobody mentioned anything about idiots until you and I most certainly did not imply such.

@Rick....I also subscribe to the 6 P's.  Therefore I will restate that there will be fallout no matter the victor.  It is gonna happen as it always does.  You are exactly correct with we would not be where we are if the UIL would not have pushed their agenda.  In fairness, can we honestly say that everything was perfect or as it should be before the legal "experts" got involved?  If it were perfect, we would not be having this conversation.  

If the UIL would have said "oh pretty please let's just get along" that would have worked?  Absolutely not.  Actually the UIL did ask for a proposal from a TASO sport only to receive a "take it or leave it" presentation.  The UIL handed back the document red-inked and said we'll take this one or you can leave.

If TASO would have said "oh come on over, let's have a beer and things will work out".  Mmm nope.  Back a few years ago TASO had a good relationship with the UIL because of open communication but always looking over their shoulder.  The UIL could not be trusted then so why trust them now?  

The relationship is destroyed currently due to ego and envy which is a direct reflection of leadership or lack there of.

Painful but true.


Offline Etref

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #135 on: December 22, 2010, 04:07:46 PM »
@TXMike....if reread, I clearly said that not all of the 31% support TASO and not all of the 69% support the UIL.  Therefore, you could say a 69% to 31% majority could be, let me say again and louder COULD BE, "fine".  Since clearly you are attempting to deal in reality just as I have been, when it is all over, there will be some fall out no matter the victor.  Agreed?  For the record, nobody mentioned anything about idiots until you and I most certainly did not imply such.

@Rick....I also subscribe to the 6 P's.  Therefore I will restate that there will be fallout no matter the victor.  It is gonna happen as it always does.  You are exactly correct with we would not be where we are if the UIL would not have pushed their agenda.  In fairness, can we honestly say that everything was perfect or as it should be before the legal "experts" got involved?  If it were perfect, we would not be having this conversation.  

If the UIL would have said "oh pretty please let's just get along" that would have worked?  Absolutely not.  Actually the UIL did ask for a proposal from a TASO sport only to receive a "take it or leave it" presentation.  The UIL handed back the document red-inked and said we'll take this one or you can leave.

If TASO would have said "oh come on over, let's have a beer and things will work out".  Mmm nope.  Back a few years ago TASO had a good relationship with the UIL because of open communication but always looking over their shoulder.  The UIL could not be trusted then so why trust them now?  

The relationship is destroyed currently due to ego and envy which is a direct reflection of leadership or lack there of.

Painful but true.



Perhaps a beer summit is exactly what we need.
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #136 on: December 22, 2010, 04:22:11 PM »
@TXMike....if reread, I clearly said that not all of the 31% support TASO and not all of the 69% support the UIL.  Therefore, you could say a 69% to 31% majority could be, let me say again and louder COULD BE, "fine".  Since clearly you are attempting to deal in reality just as I have been, when it is all over, there will be some fall out no matter the victor.  Agreed?  For the record, nobody mentioned anything about idiots until you and I most certainly did not imply such.
 
You said "Losing 31% is just fine with the UIL."  My point is that you must think we are idiots if you think any of us believe that losing 31% would be fine.  And if you want to play the old "not all the 31 % would support TASO" card then you need to throw down the "not all the 69% would support UIL" one also.  If the state were to suddenly lose 31 % of its experienced football officiating personnel there is NO way it COULD be fine for anyone.

All UIL had to do was create their own Chapters in those areas where TASO chapters did not want to abide by the UIL's rules.  TASO would not have objected.  And it might have spurred the guys in those TASO chapters to rethink their position.  In fact, since 1204 said officials had to be registered with UIL or TASO, they would not have even had to change 1204.

UIL screwed themselves here.  If UIL had left 1204 alone they could have gone to a flat fee system for football and started UIL chapters wherever the TASO chapters said their members would not work for it.  Probably a fair number of the guys in TASO chapters would have gone over to the UIL chapter just so they could keep working.  UIL could have had an official's program and probably at a lower , had a lower pay scale.  Or they could have really take a chance and said if you are a UIL official, you will be paid X but if you are a TASO official you will be paid Y (a lesser amount).  In return for being paid more, they could subject the UIL officials to more scrutiny than they do now and get their precious "Accountability." 


Offline Arbitrator

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #137 on: December 22, 2010, 04:42:40 PM »
Perhaps a beer summit is exactly what we need.


 ^flag

Trust me! We're way beyond any kind of beer summit with the Manor Road crowd! The actions of the  tiphat: Good UIL Dr. in actively taking a hand in converting the other TASO sports chapters to answer his "alter call" speaks volumes. We're at an impasse with a person who would rather abolish us as an organization and set up his very own so these "UIL officials" can then dance to his music. We're in court now! Let's see how this all plays out! From TASO's standpoint, I feel rather optimistic!   z^

Offline blindref757

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #138 on: December 22, 2010, 05:19:56 PM »
The main reason Dr. B supported the current UIL position was the overwhelming backlash by school supers and AD/s who were being held hostage by TASO chapters who threatened strikes and were negotiating their own fee structures - we all know these were not football chapters - however, we are TASO and suffered collateral damage.   Dr. B does not need or want to be a dictator - we've discussed many times the sports/chapters that caused all the current problems.  You can't blame Dr. B for these issues. 

I'd love to see the court ask for proof of this "OVERWHELMING BACKLASH BY SCHOOL SUPERS AND AD'S WHO WERE BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY TASO CHAPTERS". 

The court won't see that proof because it by and large does not exist.  Anyone who thinks it does has drank the kool-aid.  This was a knee-jerk reaction due to politics and a lack of leadership within both organizations.  There were very few schools who complained, and those that did, failed to work for resolution through typical practices.  Did UIL offer to listen to the chapters who decided to work within the grey areas of the old 1204 to create an increase in pay?  Did they go to TASO's leadership and ask for their help in getting chapters in line?  Did they exhaust ANY resources to try and work on the issue?  The answers are NO, NO, and NO.  They did what government power brokers do best...make a new rulebook that screws everyone to benefit a vocal minority.  I blame Dr. Breithaup directly for this failure!

Offline psv

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #139 on: December 22, 2010, 06:02:13 PM »
This response will seem a bit off topic (or maybe the thread has been derailed and this is back to the OP).

The game I was at, the crew wore the hats.  They did not seem to complain about wearing the hats, but I was not in the room when the hats were delivered, so I do not know what was said.

One thing I did find a little odd, there was something on the billboard that said "UIL STATE FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP", or something to that affect.  Wouldnt that be Texas State Football Championship?  I guess since you have TCAF, TCAL, etc....  anyways... incomplete thought to go with my incomplete sentence.

That is the extent of my input into this thread.

Thank You,


mm4292

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #140 on: December 22, 2010, 07:04:02 PM »
A couple of years ago the officials in the 5A champinship games at Reliant wore a different hat. Can't remember if it had UIL on the front. Anybody in remember?  FlAg1

fleetofoot

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #141 on: December 22, 2010, 07:17:45 PM »
Guys, this horse has been beaten enough already. It is dead and needs to be buried. We have better things to worry about than who wore what hat last week.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #142 on: December 22, 2010, 07:35:13 PM »
The main reason Dr. B supported the current UIL position was the overwhelming backlash by school supers and AD/s who were being held hostage by TASO chapters who threatened strikes and were negotiating their own fee structures - we all know these were not football chapters - however, we are TASO and suffered collateral damage.   Dr. B does not need or want to be a dictator - we've discussed many times the sports/chapters that caused all the current problems.  You can't blame Dr. B for these issues. 

Overwhelming???  What?  Very few of the 1000+ school superintendents had any issue with TASO or individual chapters.  You could probably count them on one hand!  Overwhelming?  Whatever.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #143 on: December 22, 2010, 07:36:51 PM »
I can assure you that your description is not completely accurate for each game or crew.  I don't doubt what you are saying was the case for the game you witnessed but it was not the case for all games.  I will agree with the general point of the comment that there was no undue pressure or coercion from the UIL to wear the hats.  But there was also no pressure from TASO to not wear them.  Because our fight is about much bigger issues than hats neither side (officially) made it a big deal and that's probably how we should leave it.

Last year at the 3A game at SMU, Dr B presented the caps and said "of course you don't have to wear them..."

Best regards,

Brad

Offline Arbitrator

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #144 on: December 22, 2010, 08:01:53 PM »
 ^flag

Even though they refused to wear them, the question still stands as to why the UIL hats were pilfered out of the Houston Chapter officials bags at the Saturday 4A D1 Championship game at JerryWorld?  If they were given to these guys in good faith, why would anyone want to break into their bags and take them back? Are these UIL hats really that hot of a commodity?   z^

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #145 on: December 22, 2010, 09:08:45 PM »
BEST post on this thread by fleetofoot!!!

Offline Osric Pureheart

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #146 on: December 23, 2010, 07:07:37 AM »
Trust me! We're way beyond any kind of beer summit with the Manor Road crowd!

I have a question, as a mostly amused (and entirely foreign) spectator.  Assuming TASO wins the lawsuit in overwhelming fashion, is that going to mean that literally everyone at UIL who had any knowledge of this little happening is going to resign or get fired?

If not, I suggest that a beer summit is exactly what you need at this point (admittedly, perhaps not with the two people at the top of the pile, but UIL is surely more than two men, if only because they don't seem to be the kind of people who do their own correspondence), along the lines of "how can we work together in the future?"  You're confident you're going to win in court, that's all well and good; but what happens next?  If this victory comes at the expense of any positive relationship with anyone at UIL, anyone who might subsequently fill the top jobs, it may well turn out to be a pyrrhic one...

Offline TXMike

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #147 on: December 23, 2010, 07:23:02 AM »
I have a question, as a mostly amused (and entirely foreign) spectator.  Assuming TASO wins the lawsuit in overwhelming fashion, is that going to mean that literally everyone at UIL who had any knowledge of this little happening is going to resign or get fired?
You don't understand how government agencies work over here do you?  They will not be forced out nor will they resign.


If not, I suggest that a beer summit is exactly what you need at this point (admittedly, perhaps not with the two people at the top of the pile, but UIL is surely more than two men, if only because they don't seem to be the kind of people who do their own correspondence), along the lines of "how can we work together in the future?"  You're confident you're going to win in court, that's all well and good; but what happens next?  If this victory comes at the expense of any positive relationship with anyone at UIL, anyone who might subsequently fill the top jobs, it may well turn out to be a pyrrhic one...
If anybody can work with hard-headed, demanding, lunatics, it is officials.   ;D  We do it all the time.  We will work fine with them as we go forward, as long as they stay where they belong.

WABill

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #148 on: December 23, 2010, 07:26:13 AM »
^flag

Even though they refused to wear them, the question still stands as to why the UIL hats were pilfered out of the Houston Chapter officials bags at the Saturday 4A D1 Championship game at JerryWorld?  If they were given to these guys in good faith, why would anyone want to break into their bags and take them back? Are these UIL hats really that hot of a commodity?   z^

Maybe this time, TT didn't use his own phone for the espionage, or at least was smart enough to .. I'm sorry, it is TT we are talking about, nothing smart about him... or at least was not hopelessly childish enough trespass in a locker room and dig through the personal property of officials.  This is amazing.  The entity that tells schools to provide a secure location believes they can violate those secure locations?  Amazing.  Can't wait to work for such an ethical, above the board organization!  Make the North Korean's look honest and friendly.

Offline Arbitrator

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Re: UIL Hats...to wear or not to wear, that is the argument.
« Reply #149 on: December 23, 2010, 08:53:59 AM »
I have a question, as a mostly amused (and entirely foreign) spectator.  Assuming TASO wins the lawsuit in overwhelming fashion, is that going to mean that literally everyone at UIL who had any knowledge of this little happening is going to resign or get fired?

If not, I suggest that a beer summit is exactly what you need at this point (admittedly, perhaps not with the two people at the top of the pile, but UIL is surely more than two men, if only because they don't seem to be the kind of people who do their own correspondence), along the lines of "how can we work together in the future?"  You're confident you're going to win in court, that's all well and good; but what happens next?  If this victory comes at the expense of any positive relationship with anyone at UIL, anyone who might subsequently fill the top jobs, it may well turn out to be a pyrrhic one...

 ^flag

Osric: TXMike is spot-on! Win , lose, or draw, the UIL is not going away. We all understand that. If TASO is fortunate enough to prevail against the UIL minions at the Federal Court level, then it will take 2 to 3 years for it to ever reach a trial jury, more especially with the Federal Court dockets backed up and with all of the vacant judgeships that need to be filled. Until then, the UIL and TASO will have to try to somehow cooperate with each other. But in light of the anticipated restraining orders that would, in all probability, be put in place against the UIL curtailing any officials organizing and registering activities on its part, there would absolutely be no desire on the part of the UIL egos involved to even begin any form of the negotiation process. But the bottom line would be that if TASO is successful, albeit so briefly, it would once again control its own destiny without having to worry about the immediate undue influence of the UIL.

Conversely, if TASO were not to prevail, then I'm afraid it would be "game, set, and match!" And then we would be at their total control, if not outright abolished and  done away with. The egos in the leadership at the UIL will not allow for any kind of "beer summit." This was tried in principle after the Texas State Court dismissed the original lawsuit on a technicality. TASO had called for a private meeting with the UIL, but the Executive Director of the UIL arbitrarily  and without permission invited members of the UIL Legislative Counsel among others and never even notified TASO in advance. Our TASO representatives felt rather waylaid by this show of force, thus conveying to TASO that the only negotiation the UIL was up to was pretty much "the UIL way or the highway!"

TASO remains in court because it is the only possible hope that they have for self-preservation. For more than 50 years, TASO has controlled(with advice and consent of the UIL) high school officiating activities within the State of Texas. The UIL, and more especially Dr. Breithaupt, wants to do away with TASO so they can then envelope all of this officiating directly within its domain for its own clandestine purposes, and have none to benefit the high school official. It's really just that simple!   z^
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 09:04:06 AM by arbitrator »