Author Topic: Controversial Onside Kick (video) (Read 31854 times)

TXMike · « **on:** December 11, 2011, 08:03:13 AM »

Texas HS game. 7 man crew. Team A 21 Team B 24 1 minute left in the game. Controversy over this onside kick. The issue being focused on is whether or not the ball went 10 yards. I don't think the video quality allows that to be answered definitively but the issue I see that is not part of the discussion is Team A's early blocking. If I understand the 7 man mechanics right, we would be looking to the far side officials to make that call?

http://youtu.be/fJVN3kMiTuA

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2011, 08:22:58 AM »

I cant see the ball to know where it was when the first blocks were initiated. Also, looked like "mutual combat" rather than A blocking.

Hank · « **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2011, 08:33:16 AM »

I can't see the ball on the video either but based on where the ball ended up, it looks like the blocks were early. It seems like the official on the far side on Team A's restraining line has a good view of this. I don't agree with the idea of mutual combat. B4 and B(?)(player starts inside B4 and near the hash) don't try to engage A. The player whose number I can't see, actually steps backward and gets hit.

110 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 11, 2011, 02:04:17 PM »

Can't see the ball. I see one downfield quasi-block by K, but not of a severity that gets the flag-hand twitchy.

(shrug)

TXMike · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2011, 03:57:33 AM »

2 more views:
http://youtu.be/3dZB39MOeYk

http://youtu.be/sx8IsiVJ75Q

I see the ball popping off the ground right at the KO, and then hitting ground 2d time just on the Team A side of the 50 and bopuncing high in the air and just over the 50 on the Team B side when A's player grabs the ball while airborne and come to ground right on the 50. Can we agree that Team A was not eligible to block at least until he ball was at its apex after the 2d bounce? If so, then we can see what the blockers were doing before the ball got to that point.

We have had videos this year of NCAA 7 man crews missing this same early blocking so it is no surprise guys who may not be use to working 7 man crews would not see it either but something hopefully that is part of pregame discussion when transitioning from 5 to 7 man crews.

110 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:58:51 AM »

Much better quality - and angle. I have White 27 with illegal blocking, and yes, it sure durn affected the play.

cwag · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2011, 09:15:16 AM »

I was working the down box and standing around the B40 during the kick. I knew there was no way for me to see if the ball would go 10 yards so I was watching the blocking. I did not see blocking at the time, but the first video shows #10 and #57 blocking early. Just goes to prove how difficult it is to follow all the action. I see the ball hitting the ground at A46. A friend of mine and I are going back and forth about this. Just for conversation disregard the blocking, read rule 6-1-3-2 and comment further. SJ was on team B's restraining line but could only see #4 from the back and could not see where the ball was caught. Airborne #4 catches the ball apparently over the 50 going backward and falls to the A49 where the ball was spotted. Lots of comments on Dallas News about the cheating refs and all the blown calls. Only blown call I saw favored the losing team (DPI) and was missed because of angles. Losing HC tells the LJ that "they should get the f*** out the stadium before anyone sees them."

Check out the article below. Once in a lifetime event during the winning TD run. A fox runs across the field during the play.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/high-schools/football-news/headlines/20111210-silver-fox-swag-animal-runs-on-smu-field-during-carroll-s-winning-td.ece

TXMike · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2011, 09:23:02 AM »

#4 POSSESSED (not "caught") the ball while it was barely beyond the 10 yards. Ball had broken plane so the touch was legal. He was not hit so his own act of falling backward as he came to ground and landing at some place between his 49 and the 50 which only means that is where the ball will be spotted. The reports I have read say the crew spotted the ball so the front tip was touching the 50. Is that where you fellas set up at?

Diablo · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2011, 09:47:44 AM »

Quote from: cwag on December 12, 2011, 09:15:16 AM

Check out the article below. Once in a lifetime event during the winning TD run. A fox runs across the field during the play.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/high-schools/football-news/headlines/20111210-silver-fox-swag-animal-runs-on-smu-field-during-carroll-s-winning-td.ece

I've been gone from North Texas for many moons. But isn't the Ford Stadium on the site of the former Ownby ... on SMU's campus ... in Highland Park ... in the middle of an ultra-urbanized part of Dallas ?!?!
Are there deer grazing along Central Expressway?

Hank · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2011, 10:50:42 AM »

A57 blocks B18 early. A27 blocks B4 early. With this video it's much clearer where the ball is but you have to look at both this one and the earlier one to tell the blocks are early. As far as to whether or not they should get your flag hand "itchy", I don't recall anything in the rule book about A not being allowed to "pancake" block before the ball has gone 10 yards. It says, they CAN'T BLOCK. These blocks are early, should have been called.

cwag · « **Reply #10 on:** December 12, 2011, 12:09:41 PM »

Mike...we set up on the A49. This made the whole thing look bad in my opinion, but that is where #4 was down with the ball. Is forward progress a legit concern for A on a free kick given they can't advance?

Diablo...this is the on-campus stadium at SMU (former Ownby) in the middle of Dallas. Someone told us that there are two foxes running around campus and they are frequently seen around the stadium.

BankerRef · « **Reply #11 on:** December 12, 2011, 01:13:49 PM »

I can see this getting missed pretty easily with a 5 man crew and a short kick that is a surprise. But a 7 man crew set up in short free kick formation and this was missed? IMO the receiving team did a poor job of covering the kick but regardless of that two early blocks created an advantage that should not be overlooked by the third team on the field. There is plenty of time pre-kick to think over the things to look for on this play and even to restate who has what responsibility among each of the 3 officials within ten yards of each other on each sideline. Pretty much knowing what is coming here should allow each of those six sets of eyes to have laser like focus on their area of responsibility.

Atlanta Blue · « **Reply #12 on:** December 12, 2011, 02:49:46 PM »

Quote from: cwag on December 12, 2011, 12:09:41 PM

Someone told us that there are two foxes running around campus and they are frequently seen around the stadium.

Having been to SMU, I can assure there are many more than two.

Hank · « **Reply #13 on:** December 12, 2011, 03:04:53 PM »

I don't work 7 man.

Is there a short kick formation for 7 man?

Do the 2 deep wings move up? Do they go to B's 40? Or somewhere else?

Who is responsible for the early blocks? It seems like L and H should have ball but do they in 7 man?

TXMike · « **Reply #14 on:** December 12, 2011, 03:07:35 PM »

I would agree with Coach

Welpe · « **Reply #15 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:12:53 PM »

Quote from: Hank on December 12, 2011, 03:04:53 PM

Is there a short kick formation for 7 man?

Yes. You put six officials in the "box" or within the 10 yard zone. Three on each sideline with four total on the restraining lines and two half way between the two restraining lines. TASO has a 7 man mechanics manual available also.

cwag · « **Reply #16 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:19:55 PM »

Quote from: TXMike on December 12, 2011, 03:07:35 PM

I would agree with Coach

You are right. Let's just say that every one of us on the SMU chain crew want to work the clip!! Somehow it always seems to be DallasLJ who gets that duty.

DallasLJ · « **Reply #17 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:31:08 PM »

Quote from: cwag on December 12, 2011, 05:19:55 PM

You are right. Let's just say that every one of us on the SMU chain crew want to work the clip!! Somehow it always seems to be DallasLJ who gets that duty.

Now you know why I like the clip; some freedom of movement to visit with the little people.

TXMike · « **Reply #18 on:** December 12, 2011, 08:11:08 PM »

Not surprising...complaint to be "filed"

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/high-school/post/_/id/9828/skyline-to-file-complaint-over-onside-kick-call

zebra99 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:35:26 PM »

Quote from: TXMike on December 12, 2011, 08:11:08 PM

Not surprising...complaint to be "filed"

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/high-school/post/_/id/9828/skyline-to-file-complaint-over-onside-kick-call

don't know really how anyone can make anything out of that video?

TXMike · « **Reply #20 on:** December 13, 2011, 04:12:55 AM »

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Dallas-ISD-plans-UIL-protest-over-referees-call-135484058.html
1:17 mark. Great call by the official on the 50. Ball was LEGALLY touched.

blindref757 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 13, 2011, 04:39:00 AM »

After further review, the call on the field stands. Now play defense and protect your lead and quit laying the victim card.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #22 on:** December 13, 2011, 06:34:31 AM »

Quote from: TXMike on December 13, 2011, 04:12:55 AM

..... Great call by the official on the 50. Ball was LEGALLY touched.

Have to agree - ball is just past 50, although very close factoring in the overhead camera location and angle, and first blocks are made at virtually the same time the ball crosses the 50 so they are also legal. The call looks good.

Shows how tough it can be to make the calls when on the ground with the same views as the original clips. From the original clips the two blocks sure looked illegal - based on the overhead clip in the article, they are OK.

TXMike · « **Reply #23 on:** December 13, 2011, 07:31:10 AM »

No way Roy. The ball bounced just on Team A's side of the 50 and at the time it is doing that, A is already blocking.

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #24 on:** December 13, 2011, 07:50:16 AM »

Agree Mike.

Author Topic: Controversial Onside Kick (video) (Read 31854 times)

Hank

110

110

Diablo

Hank

Hank