Author Topic: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle  (Read 51860 times)

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Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2011, 08:34:15 PM »
Taken on its own, the gesture does not look that serious, but as with the other discussion we have had on this subject, what we don't have is the context of the game when the call was made. If this was a first offense, I would also like to think that in that situation I would also just warn the player.

But what if this was a second or subsequent event? What if the player/coach/team were already warned? At some point the flag has to come out or the warning has no meaning. I did not see the game, so I don't know if there were other situations like this.

Now I know that there are those who will say that even if there were a previous warning, that the action itself would not have been enough to warrant a flag, but I gotta believe the officials on the field earned the right to be there by exercising good judgment in previous assignments. I am not saying that they are incapable of making mistakes or that they did not make a mistake in this instance, but without knowing the whole situation, they deserve, and will get- from me at least- the benefit of the doubt.

We are often quick to criticize other officials for their actions, I am as guilty of that as anyone. But to call them idiots or disparage them personnally seems out of line. There are many differing opinions expressed on this forum, and I have learned a great deal here, but I just wish the personal stuff would be kept to a minimum if not eliminated entirely. There is enough of that coming from the stands and the sidelines. It shouldn't come from other officials

Criticize their decisions, disagree with my opinions, but it serves no purpose to tear each other down.

A Happy and Healthy New Year to you all.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 09:17:45 PM by GAHSUMPIRE »

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2011, 06:01:41 AM »
We have all worked games where this has occurred, and the Official has two choices; react or ignore. Ignore and you are asked why, react and you are asked why. You action will be scrutinized either way.

But on this particular play, wouldn't you rather be defending a no-call?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2011, 08:02:08 AM »
...Change the rule whereas the enforcement is on the KO with no option for PAT enforcement on UNS...
With the ability of some kickers these days that would make many UNS enforcements a non-event.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 10:52:20 AM by Rulesman »
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Welpe

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2011, 09:10:17 AM »

The only reason I can even speculate that the official called this particular foul was to either make some futile attempt at scoring some "brownie points" or "atta-boy's" from his conference commissioner, or if it was his particular sideline, to aid in appeasing a coach who had been royally doling out an "BUTT-chewing" of his own on that particular official during the course of the game!

Had they just exercised that little bit of common-sense, it would have made for a much better ending to that football game!   z^

I think that is just a tad unfair, especially considering it was flagged by two different officials.

Offline Arbitrator

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2011, 11:56:08 AM »
I think that is just a tad unfair, especially considering it was flagged by two different officials.

 ^flag

Even though two officials allegedly saw it, I agree that it's still a numbers game. One of the two of those calling officials could very well have just discreetly warned the offender and his head coach and gone on from there. It was a simple salute... to maybe the players parents, relatives, girlfriend, et. al.  or someone whom we may never know. But he didn't get in an opposing players face and do it; had he done that, then I could really not argue with the call. By the same token, are we going to call a foul on someone who, after scoring, either points to the heavens or simply drops to a knee in a word of prayer or meditation? Isn't that also emblematic of bringing attention to oneself?

NCAA Rules Committee, Coaches, and AD's: let's try to fine-tune this rule and give the players a little deserved leeway in this truely gray area!   z^

chymechowder

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2011, 01:08:56 PM »
now the KState hoopsters are weighing in.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Wally-Judge-leads-clever-protest-of-Kansas-State?urn=ncaab-302790

so is the next step imploring Big 12 b-ball officials to lob a few retaliatory T's?   ;D

Offline TXMike

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2011, 01:13:26 PM »
^flag

Even though two officials allegedly saw it, I agree that it's still a numbers game. One of the two of those calling officials could very well have just discreetly warned the offender and his head coach and gone on from there. It was a simple salute... to maybe the players parents, relatives, girlfriend, et. al.  or someone whom we may never know.

If only 1 had chosen the "discrete warning" route there would still be a flag down. 

An official who was in that corner advised the player went to a TV camera and saluted into the camera, not a salute of the crowd as widely reported.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2011, 01:38:08 PM »
^flag

Even though two officials allegedly saw it, I agree that it's still a numbers game. One of the two of those calling officials could very well have just discreetly warned the offender and his head coach and gone on from there. It was a simple salute... to maybe the players parents, relatives, girlfriend, et. al.  or someone whom we may never know. But he didn't get in an opposing players face and do it; had he done that, then I could really not argue with the call. By the same token, are we going to call a foul on someone who, after scoring, either points to the heavens or simply drops to a knee in a word of prayer or meditation? Isn't that also emblematic of bringing attention to oneself?

It appears, arbitrator, you would not have thrown a flag in this situation, which is fine and would have been your call, HAD YOU BEEN WORKING THIS CONTEST.  Apparently you disagree with the judgment made by the official who was working this contest, which is also fine.  More importantly, should you ever be confronted with a similar situation, you and only you, will decide whether or not YOU decide a flag is warranted.

At this point in time, it really doesn't matter what the covering officials "coulda/ shoulda" done, what counts is what they actually did.  It's possible that confronted with a similar situation at some point down the road, this experience might either influence these same two officials to react exactly the same, or maybe choose not to.  There is no absolute answer, they did what they thought was right, if given a similar situation you can choose to do whatever you thinkk is right....and life goes on.

chymechowder

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2011, 02:43:36 PM »
It appears, arbitrator, you would not have thrown a flag in this situation, which is fine and would have been your call, HAD YOU BEEN WORKING THIS CONTEST.  Apparently you disagree with the judgment made by the official who was working this contest, which is also fine.  More importantly, should you ever be confronted with a similar situation, you and only you, will decide whether or not YOU decide a flag is warranted.

At this point in time, it really doesn't matter what the covering officials "coulda/ shoulda" done, what counts is what they actually did.  It's possible that confronted with a similar situation at some point down the road, this experience might either influence these same two officials to react exactly the same, or maybe choose not to.  There is no absolute answer, they did what they thought was right, if given a similar situation you can choose to do whatever you thinkk is right....and life goes on.

I know there are different officiating philosophies, but I didn't know moral relativism was one of them.  ;)

But seriously, aren't we supposed to learn from our own--and each others'--mistakes?  It CAN matter what a covering official coulda/shoulda done--not for the purpose of raking them over the coals.  But for the purpose of mutual education. Or fine-tuning a collective understanding of a rule.  (Especially one that leaves as much up to the individual's interpretation as the celebration rule.)

I think sometimes we as officials can be a little too quick to circle the wagons.  I understand the impulse to protect our own. But if we hastily say, "Nothing to see here. It was an individual's judgment. Who's to say what's right or wrong in one person's mind?  Let's move on."--then I think we do ourselves a disservice by glossing over a potentially valuable teaching moment.

elewis023

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2011, 07:25:10 PM »
But seriously, aren't we supposed to learn from our own--and each others'--mistakes?  It CAN matter what a covering official coulda/shoulda done--not for the purpose of raking them over the coals.  But for the purpose of mutual education. Or fine-tuning a collective understanding of a rule.  (Especially one that leaves as much up to the individual's interpretation as the celebration rule.)

I think sometimes we as officials can be a little too quick to circle the wagons.  I understand the impulse to protect our own. But if we hastily say, "Nothing to see here. It was an individual's judgment. Who's to say what's right or wrong in one person's mind?  Let's move on."--then I think we do ourselves a disservice by glossing over a potentially valuable teaching moment.

Agreed.   tiphat:
We all know that the game is directed by our individual judgements to what we call or do not call.  However, as stated above, doesn't each of us have a goal of getting better each game, contest, and year?  What if, just maybe, we actually learn something from this situation and have more insight into what actually goes into making this call or passing on it if faced with a similar situation.  This type of information only comes to us through analysis of plays, film review, discussion with other officials (either here or our respective meetings), and instruction from our supervisors.

Doesn't that make more sense than simply saying, "oh well, we weren't there so we can't comment on it."?  I, for one, have learned a lot of information and philosophies from being on this site.  Thank you to all the contributors; especially, Grant, Mike, Jim, Brad, Matt, Diablo, Elvis (miss him) and the many others who post videos and play situations on here. 


Offline James

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2011, 01:05:27 AM »
We might tend to circle the wagons quickly sometimes - but look at this discussion... Almost everyone is pointing to the one flag and action and asking if it was necessary or if they would do it in a similar manner.
GAHSUMPIRE has a very important point. We don't know the context leading up to that action.
Many here think a talk to was in order. We don't know that they haven't already had a talk to. Or that this player was a problem earlier. Or.. Whatever.
We don't throw a a flag for seeing the end of an action without seeing the complete action, and we can't necessarily issue an opinion about this flag without seeing the whole context.

Of course it is possible that there was nothing before hand and they were over zealous with their flags. Don't know.

Headlinesman

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2011, 06:00:58 AM »
Another possibility for your consideration:  we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Head Coach, OC, or position coach had done their job and taught this kid to, when scoring a td, immediately return the ball to the nearest official, then get his fanny to the team area - where he can salute everyone up to the Pope or President if he wants!!

Offline DallasLJ

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2011, 09:58:02 AM »
Another possibility for your consideration:  we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Head Coach, OC, or position coach had done their job and taught this kid to, when scoring a td, immediately return the ball to the nearest official, then get his fanny to the team area - where he can salute everyone up to the Pope or President if he wants!!

  Excellent point -- do your celebrating with teammates in your team area and we got nothing.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2011, 10:35:57 AM »
Another possibility for your consideration:  we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Head Coach, OC, or position coach had done their job and taught this kid to, when scoring a td, immediately return the ball to the nearest official, then get his fanny to the team area - where he can salute everyone up to the Pope or President if he wants!!
In other words, act like you've been there before!
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2011, 12:58:02 PM »
Another possibility for your consideration:  we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Head Coach, OC, or position coach had done their job and taught this kid to, when scoring a td, immediately return the ball to the nearest official, then get his fanny to the team area - where he can salute everyone up to the Pope or President if he wants!!

You can teach a kid all day long, but that won't stop a brief, non-confrontational spontaneous reaction on their part, which is excactly what I considered this to be.

I could argue the same thing.  If the official took his time and thought about the entire action, it's brevity, it's lack of taunting or confrontation, etc., he might not have thrown a flag either.  But he reacted, just as kids, even kids who are taught, are apt to do on occassion.

Look at the NFL official two weeks ago who got shoved.  His "reaction" was terrible, and he is an incredibly well trained professional.

Spontaneous reactions happen.  Redding even makes note of that is his explanations of what should and shouldn't be called.

I wonder, in his own mind, if the official that called this foul , in retrospect, now thinks he shouldn't have.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2011, 01:02:33 PM »
Which official, Blue?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2011, 01:03:45 PM »
Which official, Blue?

The one that threw the flag, not the one that mirrored the call.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2011, 01:08:43 PM »
So now one of them mirrored the call?

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2011, 01:09:52 PM »
The one that threw the flag, not the one that mirrored the call.

Are you sure it was mirrored?  I thought that both flags came out at the same time, with not enough time in between to see that the other official was throwing his.  Plus, at this level I don't think any official would "mirror" someone unless they also judged the act to be illegal.    

Offline TXMike

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2011, 01:14:12 PM »
Assuming facts not in evidence there Blue.   Someone who was present at that game has reported the flags came out simultaneously.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2011, 02:46:53 PM »
Assuming facts not in evidence there Blue.   Someone who was present at that game has reported the flags came out simultaneously.

That same person also said the salute was to the TV camera and not the crowd, and the video you posted clearly shows that is not true.  The camera is off of his left shoulder, while the direction he is facing is clearly to the cameraman's left and to the crowd.


Offline TXMike

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2011, 02:49:19 PM »
There were multiple cameras from the network as well as other media covering the game. 

What evidence do you have to suggest, much less prove, the 2d flag was a "mirror"?

chymechowder

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2011, 02:53:13 PM »
Back, and to the left.

Back....and to the left.


Grant - AR

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2011, 04:01:01 PM »
Back, and to the left.

Back....and to the left.



Or... ;D


Offline williebe

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Re: Pinstripe Bowl Debacle
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2011, 04:15:45 PM »
I have noticed that, after this incident that more players are tossing the ball to the nearest official. Just an observation.