Pinstripe Bowl Debacle

[Curious]

I have noticed that, after this incident that more players are tossing the ball to the nearest official. Just an observation.

Now, THAT'S something Barry Sanders would be proud of!

(Still a "horse s%$#" call)

[Atlanta Blue]

Now, THAT'S something Barry Sanders would be proud of!

(Still a "horse s%$#" call)

As would Herschel, who always tossed the ball to the official and actged like he had scored before.

As to the mirroring, there was a view somewhere that showed flags arriving at very different times.  And no, I don't have it.

[TXMike]

And tossing them from different spots on the field would have no affect on the landing time?

[cincybearcat]

As would Herschel, who always tossed the ball to the official and actged like he had scored before.

As to the mirroring, there was a view somewhere that showed flags arriving at very different times.  And no, I don't have it.

Wow...so just because flags come out one after another they are "mirrored"?  One of the biggest misconceptions among coaches is that officials "mirror" flags.  If I'm an official and I see my buddy throw a flag that I wasn't going to flag...why in the hell would I put my butt on the line as well by throwing a flag just to "mirror" him?

[cincybearcat]

oh...and the other big misconception is that when we don't have a number of the fouler...we made the foul up.  ok...glad I got those off my chest, I feel better now.

[RickKY]

My thoughts:
1.  The salute was not excessive or prolonged, but less than a second
2.  The salute did not bring any more attention to the player than he did by scoring in the first place.  This attention was no more than pointing to the sky, raising both arms overhead, jumping up and down, or any other of a list of actions we do not flag as excessive.
3.  Could this be construed as excessive by some officials?  Yes.  However, in my opinion this was not worthy of my flag, but I was not in the game.
4.  For some who think the officials should have warned the player, we are not instructed to issue warnings, even though we do every game.  In cases of USC we are specifically instructed not to issue warnings, yet many of us do just that. (for NFHS, I cannot speak to instructions for NCAA)
5.  It is the judgement of the official covering the play, and he must stand by his call or wave off the flag.

Bottom line:  I would not have called this foul, but I will mark off the yardage just the same if my crew mate did flag it, and I'll sell it the coach if need be.

[AlUpstateNY]

As would Herschel, who always tossed the ball to the official and actged like he had scored before.

As to the mirroring, there was a view somewhere that showed flags arriving at very different times.  And no, I don't have it.

I wonder what coaches would think about an official, who presumed that every time a player committed a personal foul, he did so because he was instructed to play dirty by his coach?

[fbrefga]

There is another unseen camera that captured the flight of the supposed second flag; thrown from the grassy knoll! 

[VictorSlade]

The rule states: "Any delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which a player attempts to focus attention on himself (or themselves)." The act in question met NONE of the four characteristics mentioned in the rule. It was immediate, not delayed. It was minor, not excessive. It was brief, not prolonged. Obviously, no choreography was required.

[TxJim]

Man, I can't vent enough about what a joke that last Pinstripe Bowl penalty was.  It was a sad end to a good game; so bad that even the Syracuse fans are talking about how ridiculous it was.

I'm a Big Ten fan, and in both football and basketball we pride ourselves on physical play that happens in many cases because the officials seem to have the "Let them play" mentality.  And that's the way it should be.  But after watching the end of that game I'm embarrassed to be associated with the Big Ten.  I live in Kansas City and I was rooting against K-State.  I don't like the Big 12, but I would never wish a "blown" call to decide the outcome of a game.  I'd much rather see everyone healthy and active, and as long as certain penalties don't decide the outcome, "Let them play".  Then I'm happy to watch them get their butts kicked.

I realize that the official's superiors and the National Officiating Coordinator have to publicly stand by their man, but I can't believe any one of them thinks it was the correct call to make.  I'm not disputing whether it was a penalty or not.  By the book it was a penalty, but that's a sad defense in justifying the call.  It was far less an excessive celebration than seen a thousand times during the season, and dozens of times throughout all the bowl games.  And I guarantee the offficial in question saw similar or worse infractions during the year and did nothing.  Then after a whole season of team preparation, on and off field ups and downs, and the wins and losses, the official decided the last seconds of a teams final game were the perfect time to be an ambassador against "excessive celebration".  I guess the idiot that made the call thought the game was supposed to be all about him.  As far as I'm concerned he got his wish because I watched the whole game and the only thing I can think about is the 2 second brain-fart that ruined it.  It might as well been called the Zebra Stripe Bowl.  If there were any truth to the comments the player said came from the official after the call, the "bad decision, buddy" comment, this guy needs to be demoted to intermural woman's flag football.

Who's "Blown call" are you talking about?

Why are you not talking about a Kansas State failed fake field goal at the SYR 11 yard line?
Or, That Coach Snyder himself said "wasn't a good call" on his part?

OR that The KState defense surrendered 498 yards and failed to account for Marcus Sales who had 172 yards and three touchdowns?

Or telling the world why of the OTHER 62 offensive plays that Kansas State ran in the game, it was this Dead Ball foul that cost them the game?

Or how KState QB Carson Coffman himself said, "It's something you can't do, we know that."

Yeah, right.

[Jackhammer]

Who's "Blown call" are you talking about?

Why are you not talking about a Kansas State failed fake field goal at the SYR 11 yard line?
Or, That Coach Snyder himself said "wasn't a good call" on his part?

OR that The KState defense surrendered 498 yards and failed to account for Marcus Sales who had 172 yards and three touchdowns?

Or telling the world why of the OTHER 62 offensive plays that Kansas State ran in the game, it was this Dead Ball foul that cost them the game?

Or how KState QB Carson Coffman himself said, "It's something you can't do, we know that."

Yeah, right.

Jim,
A spade is a spade.

In each of the examples you cited the K-State team owned up to their mistake in performance, effort and judgement.  The officiating crew did/has not.

[TxJim]

In each of the examples you cited the K-State team owned up to their mistake in performance, effort and judgement.  The officiating crew did/has not.

Sorry, but I just can't let one get by...
What do you mean by "[the crew] did/has not" ??

Is not the fact that the NCAA CFO coordinator of officials and the chairman of the NCAA Football Rules committee stating publicly in major media that it was the correct call enough?

What do you want or expect the crew to do?  Please, be specific.

I would like to hear your recommendations for the circumstances you propose in which an official or crew would be compelled to "own up" as you said, to a judgement call beyond that of their supervisor's internal review process, or that of the CFO, or the rules committee ...in a way that public should know and hear about it.

Based on the 1st post of this thread, there are many fans who believe they are entitled to be part of some sort of public and televised evaluation process that results in the castigating or firing of officials for calls they neither understand nor agree with.

[Jackhammer]

"Correct call" while the rest of the college football world dances and prances....C'mon Man....nope, that's not enough.  It creates cynicism with and about the whole lot of us.

Perhaps the slash "has" was a mistake?  The crew did make comment immediately following the game.  Had they at the time, "owned up" that they just blew the call it shifts the entire discussion.  For a representative example I would point to Jim Joyce this past summer.

Listen we all make mistakes, I've yet to work a perfect game.  My point and my position is that we as officials do need to take responsibility.  We need to say when we blow it.  I believe it gives us more credibility when we do.  For the most part people DO understand we make mistakes....It's only when our egos get in the way that it seems to get us (as officials in general) in trouble.

The crew's specific response to that specific call following the game in attempting to justify their judgement of the celebration, when the rest of the nation could see evidence to the contrary from that same game and games throughout the bowl season, is what I was referring to.

So you are correct, I don't expect them to say anything more, but at the time they chose to speak and what they DID say wasn't a proper self examination of their judgment.  Otherwise, if they only want to be subject to their supervisors review, I'd say don't speak at all.

[AlUpstateNY]

Excuse me, Jackhammer, but why do you expect anyone has to beg forgiveness from you, for any call they made?  You are entitled to your opinion, but as far as ego being a problem is concerned YOU just have to accept that YOUR opinion simply doesn't matter to anyone but you.  If the official making the call is comfortable with his judgment, who are you to insist anyone "own up" to agree with you.

Yes, we all do make mistakes and dealing with our judgments, whether they be right or wrong, is a majhor part of our job.  When exactly did the King die and you get coronated to be the one to decide, "what they DID say wasn't a proper self examination of their judgment."

The harsh reality is simply that YOU don't get to decide squat, unless and until you are assigned to work the contest you're opinining on.  If you are assigned, then you get to make all the calls and I would certainly wish you well.  Otherwise you are just one of many spectators who gets to enjoy watching the game and pontificating to your hearts content to those around you, but to be honest, that's as far as your opinion goes.

[Jackhammer]

Right call or wrong call, Al?

That's what it comes down to and to suggest one can't make it, observe, think about it and comment on it from afar is ludicrous.  It's all part of the process of trying to get better....if you don't own up to your shortcomings, you don't in fact, get better.

 

[zebra99]

Right call or wrong call, Al?

That's what it comes down to and to suggest one can't make it, observe, think about it and comment on it from afar is ludicrous.  It's all part of the process of trying to get better....if you don't own up to your shortcomings, you don't in fact, get better.

  

but asking someone to "own up" and criticizing them if they don't - is nothing more than you advancing you opinion (which is your right) that the call was incorrect and that the officials agree with you!

There are many calls in football that can be supported either way - I hear that from my supervisor often - it's not an exact science, zero sum endeavor.
 On this play I'm not critical that a flag was thrown and I wouldn't be critical if they passed on it.  The whole debate was not caused by the officials - it was caused by the player putting the officials in a tough spot - if you steal from the cookie jar, you can't complain when Mom catches you, that she didn't catch your sister.

[Jackhammer]

but asking someone to "own up" and criticizing them if they don't - is nothing more than you advancing you opinion (which is your right) that the call was incorrect and that the officials agree with you!

There are many calls in football that can be supported either way - I hear that from my supervisor often - it's not an exact science, zero sum endeavor.
 On this play I'm not critical that a flag was thrown and I wouldn't be critical if they passed on it.  The whole debate was not caused by the officials - it was caused by the player putting the officials in a tough spot - if you steal from the cookie jar, you can't complain when Mom catches you, that she didn't catch your sister.

I agree with you Zebra, but that's not exactly the context of any of this.  My response has been to a rebuttal that essentially justifies the call by examining a number of other factors present in the game....all of which were "owned up" by the offending individuals/units.

You really can't say officials are blameless, the player made a choice, the official made a choice.  The counter question is when the sister, multiple times in the same game, reached into the cookie jar Mom didn't "choose" to catch her. When "choosing" to speak to the media immediately following the game the officials chose to say, it's a technical violation of the rules....when all could see that it had not been enforced prior to that point in the ballgame.

The "rulebook made me do it" is a fairly weak argument in this case.

[zebra99]

I agree with you Zebra, but that's not exactly the context of any of this.  My response has been to a rebuttal that essentially justifies the call by examining a number of other factors present in the game....all of which were "owned up" by the offending individuals/units.

You really can't say officials are blameless, the player made a choice, the official made a choice.  The counter question is when the sister, multiple times in the same game, reached into the cookie jar Mom didn't "choose" to catch her. When "choosing" to speak to the media immediately following the game the officials chose to say, it's a technical violation of the rules....when all could see that it had not been enforced prior to that point in the ballgame.

The "rulebook made me do it" is a fairly weak argument in this case.

thanks - good discussion - not sure where it gets us in the heat of battle, though.  This wasn't the first controversy over post-TD player actions and certainly won't be the last.

[TxJim]

I agree with you Zebra, but that's not exactly the context of any of this.  My response has been to a rebuttal that essentially justifies the call by examining a number of other factors present in the game....all of which were "owned up" by the offending individuals/units.

You really can't say officials are blameless, the player made a choice, the official made a choice.  The counter question is when the sister, multiple times in the same game, reached into the cookie jar Mom didn't "choose" to catch her. When "choosing" to speak to the media immediately following the game the officials chose to say, it's a technical violation of the rules....when all could see that it had not been enforced prior to that point in the ballgame.

The "rulebook made me do it" is a fairly weak argument in this case

"Blameless?" 

"an official" did not make a choice, two officials make choices in this case.

"...when all could see that it had not been enforced prior to that point in the ballgame."   You mean what ESPN showed?  Have you ever enforced anything through talking, explaining, or warnings to coaches or players?  I'm quite sure you do not know what the crew may have or did not say to any coaches before or during the game regarding conduct during the game.
 
My problem with your posts in this thread are "you say you can't own up to shortcomings you can't get better," but your augment uses words like "blame" and continues to strongly imply that two officials one call cost K-state the football game.

[Jackhammer]

No Jim, that's your inference.....in fact my opinion is at the total opposite, I'm convinced K-State would've lost the game for the very reasons you noted. 

However, I do believe two wrongs don't make a right, so just because two officials threw the flag it doesn't matter and is irrelevant.  I did watch the whole game and am capable of discerning commentator blather.  There was in fact multiple occasions by both teams of celebrations that rose to the same level as the salute.  I believe there would've been ZERO discussion about this topic if the officiating crew had chosen to enforce this particular part of the rulebook in the prior 58:40 of the game. 

The officiating crew did not say immediately following the game, we warned K-State on multiple occasions and this was just the straw that broke the camels back.  I mean they did speak about this play after the game, why wouldn't they say that?  They hid behind the rulebook at that moment, when it was clear they had exercised judgment throughout the game

We can sit around and make up hypotheticals about how it's a justifiable call, when the evidence to the contrary is there for all to see. 

[zebra99]

No Jim, that's your inference.....in fact my opinion is at the total opposite, I'm convinced K-State would've lost the game for the very reasons you noted.  

However, I do believe two wrongs don't make a right, so just because two officials threw the flag it doesn't matter and is irrelevant.  I did watch the whole game and am capable of discerning commentator blather.  There was in fact multiple occasions by both teams of celebrations that rose to the same level as the salute.  I believe there would've been ZERO discussion about this topic if the officiating crew had chosen to enforce this particular part of the rulebook in the prior 58:40 of the game.  

The officiating crew did not say immediately following the game, we warned K-State on multiple occasions and this was just the straw that broke the camels back.  I mean they did speak about this play after the game, why wouldn't they say that?  They hid behind the rulebook at that moment, when it was clear they had exercised judgment throughout the game

We can sit around and make up hypotheticals about how it's a justifiable call, when the evidence to the contrary is there for all to see.  

gotta disagree that two officials making the same call is irrelevant - in fact, it's very relevant as two identical judgments were made, certainly a factor to consider - what if 4 officials ruled UNS on this conduct?  wouldn't that be a factor to consider when performing the "post mortem?"

Bottom line here - is that you firmly believe it should not have been flagged so your comments are in that direction - nothing wrong with that but others disagree with your view, and that's ok too

[Rulesman]

 
Is Jackhammer's argument possibly coming from a K-State fan who thinks his team was jobbed?

[AlUpstateNY]

  I mean they did speak about this play after the game, why wouldn't they say that?  They hid behind the rulebook at that moment, when it was clear they had exercised judgment throughout the game

We can sit around and make up hypotheticals about how it's a justifiable call, when the evidence to the contrary is there for all to see. 

Excuse me but, what "evidence" it there for "who to see?  What exactly does, "They hid behind the rulebook at that moment, when it was clear they had exercised judgment throughout the game" mean?  Aren't we all supposed to stand behind the rulebook AND exercise judgment throughout the game?

You may be entitled to your opinion, Jackhammer, but it only covers you.

[Big Wave Dave]

I'm glad my initial post got so much discussion time, and I appreciate everything that was said.  Maybe I went off a little too much at first, but as HACKED off as I was, I needed this site to get it off my chest.  I'm just glad that I got so many points of view.

After calming down and reading all the responses, let me straighten out my perceived opinion.  First of all, I completely respect what all officials have to go through in their careers.  I know firsthand how tough it can be just to get to the level of HS, college, and pro officiating.  My father was a baseball, basketball, and football official for nearly 20 years, and only missed out on D1 football because of injuries.  I grew up with my opinions about this or that call, but I always had him there to give me the "official" point of view; a view that most fans don't get an opportunity to understand, and most probably wouldn't care to hear.  It eventually turned me into a well informed fan and I often find myself being the defender of those calls I used to question.

I never said that the late game flag (or flags) in that particular game was incorrect.  I just said it was a bad call.  The fact that it was "officially" a penalty makes it easy for the supervising officials to say "it was the correct call", but it's like someone getting ticketed for driving 3 miles over the speed limit.  Were you speeding?  Yes.  Should you have been pulled over?  No.  Why was that driver pulled over for such a minor offense while hundreds of other drivers are ignored for driving 10-15 mph over the limit.  In this case most judges would throw out the charge and would likely reprimand the officer for wasting the courts time.  I hear the officials justify the call by saying it's clearly in the rule book, and they say controlling "excessive celebration" has been a priority.  I just question how many times the official (or officials) made a similar call during the season for something as "UN" expressive as a salute to the crowd.  If they didn't call it regularly during the year why should they wait till the final moments of their final game of the season to make up for similar or worse infractions they previously ignored?  No-calls happen hundreds of times per game, but that's for the good of the game.  If every official had the mentality that every violation should be called we'd have 6 hour games and a lot less fans.  As fans, we don't want to see a flag for every hold, every hand to the face, and every push and shove after the whistle.  In 80% of plays, officials use an intelligent sense of restraint when it comes to these infractions.  Thank god.  Obviously, "restraint" was not in the vocabulary of 1 or 2 Big 10 officials at the end of that game.

As far as whether the end of game penalty would have made a difference?  That's beside the point.  My opinion wasn't about K-State losing out on a chance to win.  I don't even like K-State.  Prior to that call I was glad to see them getting beat.  It's just too bad for the fans that the game was decided by a yellow flag that shouldn't have been thrown, instead of the play of 2 good teams that worked a whole season to get to that point.

On a little different note, I'd like to ask the opinion of you officials out there.  Just for a second, let's assume that the words of the K-State player at the end of the game are true.  He said the official that flagged him said, "Bad decision, Buddy", prior to throwing the flag.  IF the comment was accurate are there any of you that want to defend that comment, or if you think it was wrong for him to say, what kind of reprimand should that official receive?

And for the response about how embarrassed I should be about the Big 10 Bowl record?  I am embarrassed, but then I don't care about any of the teams that lost.  I only care about my lowly Hawkeyes saving face and thumping the might MU Kittens.  I guess the Big 12's got as much to be embarrassed about as the Big 10.

[TXMike]

Nobody defended the ALLEGED comment.  If he did say that and it was proven, then he should be disciplined in accordance with his conference's policies.