Pinstripe Bowl Debacle

[Big Wave Dave]

Man, I can't vent enough about what a joke that last Pinstripe Bowl penalty was.  It was a sad end to a good game; so bad that even the Syracuse fans are talking about how ridiculous it was.

I'm a Big Ten fan, and in both football and basketball we pride ourselves on physical play that happens in many cases because the officials seem to have the "Let them play" mentality.  And that's the way it should be.  But after watching the end of that game I'm embarrassed to be associated with the Big Ten.  I live in Kansas City and I was rooting against K-State.  I don't like the Big 12, but I would never wish a "blown" call to decide the outcome of a game.  I'd much rather see everyone healthy and active, and as long as certain penalties don't decide the outcome, "Let them play".  Then I'm happy to watch them get their butts kicked.

I realize that the official's superiors and the National Officiating Coordinator have to publicly stand by their man, but I can't believe any one of them thinks it was the correct call to make.  I'm not disputing whether it was a penalty or not.  By the book it was a penalty, but that's a sad defense in justifying the call.  It was far less an excessive celebration than seen a thousand times during the season, and dozens of times throughout all the bowl games.  And I guarantee the offficial in question saw similar or worse infractions during the year and did nothing.  Then after a whole season of team preparation, on and off field ups and downs, and the wins and losses, the official decided the last seconds of a teams final game were the perfect time to be an ambassador against "excessive celebration".  I guess the idiot that made the call thought the game was supposed to be all about him.  As far as I'm concerned he got his wish because I watched the whole game and the only thing I can think about is the 2 second brain-fart that ruined it.  It might as well been called the Zebra Stripe Bowl.  If there were any truth to the comments the player said came from the official after the call, the "bad decision, buddy" comment, this guy needs to be demoted to intermural woman's flag football.

[TXMike]

Feel better now?

[clearwall]

What really made it seem even worse was the Music City bowl right after it. Tenn players were saluting, stomping, etc yet no call. Agreed, that call was a HORRIBLE decision. Even if you think that was "drawing attention to himself" how in the world do you call it at THAT point in the game?

[TXMike]

How do you NOT flag it at THAT point if you would have flagged it at ANOTHER point?

[clearwall]

How do you NOT flag it at THAT point if you would have flagged it at ANOTHER point?

I wouldnt have flagged that at all. I didnt watch the whole game, but I cant imagine there wasnt anything more demonstrative in that game than that. It was a bad time and place, imho.

[TXMike]

Well if you would not have flagged at all then obviously you would not flag at THAT point in the game.  Have you read Redding's memo on unbsportsmanlike conduct?

[Rulesman]

Man, I can't vent enough about what a joke that last Pinstripe Bowl penalty was.  It was a sad end to a good game; so bad that even the Syracuse fans are talking about how ridiculous it was.

I'm a Big Ten fan, and in both football and basketball we pride ourselves on physical play that happens in many cases because the officials seem to have the "Let them play" mentality.  And that's the way it should be.  But after watching the end of that game I'm embarrassed to be associated with the Big Ten.  I live in Kansas City and I was rooting against K-State.  I don't like the Big 12, but I would never wish a "blown" call to decide the outcome of a game.  I'd much rather see everyone healthy and active, and as long as certain penalties don't decide the outcome, "Let them play".  Then I'm happy to watch them get their butts kicked.

I realize that the official's superiors and the National Officiating Coordinator have to publicly stand by their man, but I can't believe any one of them thinks it was the correct call to make.  I'm not disputing whether it was a penalty or not.  By the book it was a penalty, but that's a sad defense in justifying the call.  It was far less an excessive celebration than seen a thousand times during the season, and dozens of times throughout all the bowl games.  And I guarantee the offficial in question saw similar or worse infractions during the year and did nothing.  Then after a whole season of team preparation, on and off field ups and downs, and the wins and losses, the official decided the last seconds of a teams final game were the perfect time to be an ambassador against "excessive celebration".  I guess the idiot that made the call thought the game was supposed to be all about him.  As far as I'm concerned he got his wish because I watched the whole game and the only thing I can think about is the 2 second brain-fart that ruined it.  It might as well been called the Zebra Stripe Bowl.  If there were any truth to the comments the player said came from the official after the call, the "bad decision, buddy" comment, this guy needs to be demoted to intermural woman's flag football.

...Nice first post. 

[JasonTX]

When a D-1 Head Football Coach, chairman of the rules committee says that the "salute" call was correct and the type of actions they want to get rid of in the game, then it really doesn't matter what fans think of the rule.  When the head man says it was correct.  Guess what?  It is correct.  We work for the folks who create the rules.  You should research who the makers of the rules are.

[RMR]

It's simple - don't like my judgment, don't make me use it.

But a fanboy will never understand that.

You just go ahead and be embarrassed by your "association with the Big 10."

[APG]

Even if you think that was "drawing attention to himself" how in the world do you call it at THAT point in the game?

This part doesn't even make sense. If you believe a player celebrating is drawing attention to oneself, it's a penalty period. We as officials get a bad rap when we decide to "swallow our whistle" at the end of the game.

[cincybearcat]

i would focus on being more embarrased by 0-5 for the big 11 on new years day

[Rulesman]

i would focus on being more embarrased by 0-5 for the big 11 on new years day

+1

[clearwall]

Well if you would not have flagged at all then obviously you would not flag at THAT point in the game.  Have you read Redding's memo on unbsportsmanlike conduct?

So you're saying there's never a case where you let something go even if its technically a foul? You've never had a holding behind a play where you just let it happen and didnt flag it because it didnt affect a play?

And no, I havent read the memo.

[TXMike]

I have seen "fouls" that did not affect the play and I did not flag but it did not matter if it was the start of the game or the end.  If it did not afect the play it was not flagged.  Dead ball fouls like this ine NEVER affect the play as they are after it end so that is a faulty comparison. You have not read the memo college officials have read and which I suspect the crew of this game has read.  So they were operating with guiodance you are not aware of.

[AlUpstateNY]

So you're saying there's never a case where you let something go even if its technically a foul? You've never had a holding behind a play where you just let it happen and didnt flag it because it didnt affect a play?

And no, I havent read the memo.

You're previous comment ("how in the world do you call it at THAT point in the game?") was dumb enough and trying to spin yourself out of that hole with further explanations is an impossible task.  The Holy Grail of "consistency" everyone seems to pine for begins with the requirement that "you officiate the end of the game exactly as you did the beginning of the game".  How this game affects, or should be affected by, what happens at some other game is totally beyond the control, or concern, of the officials at either game.

Whether you would have thrown that flag, or chose not to, would be entirely your decision and you are free to agree, or disagree with the decision made by the actual field officials, but that's where it should end.  Perhaps some day, you will be selected, or assigned, to work a specific game and you will be in a position to decide whether what you see merits  a flag, or not.   Hopefully you'll have the courage to make what you believe is the right call, which may not be the popular one. 

[mccormicw]

You're previous comment ("how in the world do you call it at THAT point in the game?") was dumb enough and trying to spin yourself out of that hole with further explanations is an impossible task.  The Holy Grail of "consistency" everyone seems to pine for begins with the requirement that "you officiate the end of the game exactly as you did the beginning of the game".  How this game affects, or should be affected by, what happens at some other game is totally beyond the control, or concern, of the officials at either game.

Whether you would have thrown that flag, or chose not to, would be entirely your decision and you are free to agree, or disagree with the decision made by the actual field officials, but that's where it should end.  Perhaps some day, you will be selected, or assigned, to work a specific game and you will be in a position to decide whether what you see merits  a flag, or not.   Hopefully you'll have the courage to make what you believe is the right call, which may not be the popular one. 

Well said...

[Diablo]

The Holy Grail of "consistency" everyone seems to pine for begins with the requirement that "you officiate the end of the game exactly as you did the beginning of the game".
 

I have the strong sense, and some experiences, that a LOT of officials advidly voice that position but a significant number do not practice it.

When faced with a situation akin to the last 16 sec in the Tenn-NC game or the end of the Pinstripe Bowl, your mind does not always follow thru on prior mental committments.

[pgh guy]

When a D-1 Head Football Coach, chairman of the rules committee says that the "salute" call was correct and the type of actions they want to get rid of in the game, then it really doesn't matter what fans think of the rule.  When the head man says it was correct.  Guess what?  It is correct.  We work for the folks who create the rules.  You should research who the makers of the rules are.

It doesn't matter if Randy Edsall stated this.  He would not want this call going against his team in any situation much less a bowl game (assuming he actually had chance in hell of winning) after a score.  The coaches only like what is convenient about the rules as they're written when they can benefit.  All of the press releases by head of this committee or that committee or the head of CFO doesn't make this right.  This call was marginal at best.  It's amazing we have had press releases from Parry, Edsall and others BUT Bill Carollo.  Considering his pedigree is the same as many others (Austin, McAulay, Anderson) heading up an officiating dept of guys we regularly see working these bowls, it is my belief a talk to would have worked out best rather than the "I gotcha mentality" of the calling official.

Just to reiterate my position, that salute was not excessive and saluting the fans is exactly that.  We don't throw flags whenever a player raises his arm into the air?  Not because it isn't specifically mentioned in Rule 9 but because common sense for those of us who perhaps at one point had an emotional attachment to the game understand when a spectacular play was made.

We can sit here and say they acted to the letter of the law to protect our own, but the intent of that player was not to draw excessive focus on himself insofar as it was to celebrate a play in the heat of the moment.

Some guys are just the fun Gestapo.

[TXMike]

I don't  know this to be a fact, but if it were, would your opinion change? Assume these 2 officials (or others in their conference) were downgraded by their TA/observer/supervisor earlier in the year for NOt flagging this or a very similar act?  Wouldn't you expect them to flag it now?

Or assume they HAD flagged this or a similar act earlier in the year and received an attaboy?  Wouldn't you expect them to flag again? 

[pgh guy]

I find it hard to believe that this is a "Make it be there" foul.  That phrase by the way originated out of this conference.  Additionally, it is hard to support by the guidelines of our rules editor or even by rule as suggested.  I pretty much guarantee that if no flag was thrown in this situation, this post and the one like it would not be 2 pages long...

[JasonTX]

It doesn't matter if Randy Edsall stated this.  He would not want this call going against his team in any situation much less a bowl game (assuming he actually had chance in hell of winning) after a score.  The coaches only like what is convenient about the rules as they're written when they can benefit.  All of the press releases by head of this committee or that committee or the head of CFO doesn't make this right.  This call was marginal at best.  It's amazing we have had press releases from Parry, Edsall and others BUT Bill Carollo.  Considering his pedigree is the same as many others (Austin, McAulay, Anderson) heading up an officiating dept of guys we regularly see working these bowls, it is my belief a talk to would have worked out best rather than the "I gotcha mentality" of the calling official.

Just to reiterate my position, that salute was not excessive and saluting the fans is exactly that.  We don't throw flags whenever a player raises his arm into the air?  Not because it isn't specifically mentioned in Rule 9 but because common sense for those of us who perhaps at one point had an emotional attachment to the game understand when a spectacular play was made.

We can sit here and say they acted to the letter of the law to protect our own, but the intent of that player was not to draw excessive focus on himself insofar as it was to celebrate a play in the heat of the moment.

Some guys are just the fun Gestapo.

I never said I liked the call, but I find it hard to argue with the man responsible for the content of the rule book  If that is what they want flagged, then I suspect there are a great number of us who have had quite a few incorrect no calls.  If the chair of the rules committee says it was correct then what else is there.  His word is fact.  Ours are left as opinions.

[AlUpstateNY]

I find it hard to believe that this is a "Make it be there" foul.  That phrase by the way originated out of this conference.  Additionally, it is hard to support by the guidelines of our rules editor or even by rule as suggested.  I pretty much guarantee that if no flag was thrown in this situation, this post and the one like it would not be 2 pages long...  

Perhaps the reason this issue is two pages long is because some feel the world has to know exactly how THEY would have handled the situation.  The harsh reality is, however, none of that matters.  The call was made, obviously it was one that just as easily could not have been made, as was made.  

Having second guessed myself way more times than I should have had to, I can appreciate that all this "coulda, shoulda" second guessing leads this discussion nowhere.  If you saw the play, and agree with the call and believe why you agree with it, great.  If you saw the call and don't agree with it and believe why you don't agree with it, just as great.  If a similar situation presents itself in YOUR future, you'll be better prepared to deal with it as you see fit, presuming you have the courage to follow your heart at that moment, the way that covering official did without hesitation.

But second guessing and imagining why the call was made, the way the call was made simply doesn't clarify a damn thing or add anything useful.

[Arbitrator]

Man, I can't vent enough about what a joke that last Pinstripe Bowl penalty was.  It was a sad end to a good game; so bad that even the Syracuse fans are talking about how ridiculous it was.

I'm a Big Ten fan, and in both football and basketball we pride ourselves on physical play that happens in many cases because the officials seem to have the "Let them play" mentality.  And that's the way it should be.  But after watching the end of that game I'm embarrassed to be associated with the Big Ten.  I live in Kansas City and I was rooting against K-State.  I don't like the Big 12, but I would never wish a "blown" call to decide the outcome of a game.  I'd much rather see everyone healthy and active, and as long as certain penalties don't decide the outcome, "Let them play".  Then I'm happy to watch them get their butts kicked.

I realize that the official's superiors and the National Officiating Coordinator have to publicly stand by their man, but I can't believe any one of them thinks it was the correct call to make.  I'm not disputing whether it was a penalty or not.  By the book it was a penalty, but that's a sad defense in justifying the call.  It was far less an excessive celebration than seen a thousand times during the season, and dozens of times throughout all the bowl games.  And I guarantee the offficial in question saw similar or worse infractions during the year and did nothing.  Then after a whole season of team preparation, on and off field ups and downs, and the wins and losses, the official decided the last seconds of a teams final game were the perfect time to be an ambassador against "excessive celebration".  I guess the idiot that made the call thought the game was supposed to be all about him.  As far as I'm concerned he got his wish because I watched the whole game and the only thing I can think about is the 2 second brain-fart that ruined it.  It might as well been called the Zebra Stripe Bowl.  If there were any truth to the comments the player said came from the official after the call, the "bad decision, buddy" comment, this guy needs to be demoted to intermural woman's flag football.

 

Well said, Dave! Even at the high school and even at the junior high level, the official should simply have made a b-line for the offender in question and gave him a very stern BUTT-chewing greatly to the effect that you're letting him off the hook this time but if you see it again, you're throwing his butt out! Then convey that very same message to his  head coach! Trust me; they would deeply appreciate it being handled that way!

The only reason I can even speculate that the official called this particular foul was to either make some futile attempt at scoring some "brownie points" or "atta-boy's" from his conference commissioner, or if it was his particular sideline, to aid in appeasing a coach who had been royally doling out an "BUTT-chewing" of his own on that particular official during the course of the game!

Had they just exercised that little bit of common-sense, it would have made for a much better ending to that football game!   

[TxSkyBolt]

It doesn't matter if Randy Edsall stated this.  He would not want this call going against his team in any situation much less a bowl game (assuming he actually had chance in hell of winning) after a score.  The coaches only like what is convenient about the rules as they're written when they can benefit.  All of the press releases by head of this committee or that committee or the head of CFO doesn't make this right.  This call was marginal at best.  It's amazing we have had press releases from Parry, Edsall and others BUT Bill Carollo.  Considering his pedigree is the same as many others (Austin, McAulay, Anderson) heading up an officiating dept of guys we regularly see working these bowls, it is my belief a talk to would have worked out best rather than the "I gotcha mentality" of the calling official.

Just to reiterate my position, that salute was not excessive and saluting the fans is exactly that.  We don't throw flags whenever a player raises his arm into the air?  Not because it isn't specifically mentioned in Rule 9 but because common sense for those of us who perhaps at one point had an emotional attachment to the game understand when a spectacular play was made.

We can sit here and say they acted to the letter of the law to protect our own, but the intent of that player was not to draw excessive focus on himself insofar as it was to celebrate a play in the heat of the moment.

Some guys are just the fun Gestapo.

[BJWerth]

The way the rule is written, it was a foul. Change the rule whereas the enforcement is on the KO with no option for PAT enforcement on UNS and we are not discussing this. Those Officials were put in a very difficult position. We have all worked games where this has occurred, and the Official has two choices; react or ignore. Ignore and you are asked why, react and you are asked why. You action will be scrutinized either way.