Play Situations

[Kalle]

There are two questions to answer here:

1. What happens when a scrimmage kick goes out of bounds behind a goal line? Answer is 6-3-8, it belongs to the team defending that goal.

2. Who provided the impetus for the ball to last enter the end zone? In this case it is team B.

Remember that as long as the ball stays in the end zone, the original impetus is always on the team that caused the ball to go there (8-7-1). It would be the same if A3 fumbles the ball out of bounds behind the goal line instead of punting it.

In 8-5-1-II the ball enters the end zone by impetus from the kick.

[Legacy Zebra]

Ask them this question. B1 intercepts a pass in his own end zone. While still in the end zone, he is hit and fumbles the ball. The ball rolls out of bounds over the end line. Would you give Team A 2 points?

This is the same thing. Yes the punting/fumbling team put the ball out if bounds, but their opponent was responsible for it being in the end zone and that's what matters.

[BlindZebra]

B44 is in position to catch a punt at the B-25 when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s upper chest before the ball arrives. B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45.  The Back Judge drops his flag and reports to the Referee that A88 is charged with interference with the opportunity to catch the kick with targeting, and that A88 is disqualified. The play goes to review by Instant Replay. After review, Replay confirms the target by A88.  Ruling?

[Bwest]

B44 is in position to catch a punt at the B-25 when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s upper chest before the ball arrives. B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45.  The Back Judge drops his flag and reports to the Referee that A88 is charged with interference with the opportunity to catch the kick with targeting, and that A88 is disqualified. The play goes to review by Instant Replay. After review, Replay confirms the target by A88.  Ruling?

Tack on the target to the dead ball spot. B 1/10 @ A30, 25, snap.

One more note on the safety/touchback question. Whenever you need to decide, just think "what team is responsible for the ball last crossing the goal line?"

[dvasques]

So if this wasn't confirmed as TGT, B would have to chose between 15 yards from the spot of the foul or decline the penalty?

Or is KCI a personal foul and we can have the 15 yards enforced at spot where subsequent dead ball belong to B?



And then this
B44 is in position to catch a punt inside B's end zone when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s chest before the ball arrives. Ball hits A44 and bounces into the field at B-1, where B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45.

Should we go by the penalty statement of KCI in 6-4-1?

[robin083]

B44 is in position to catch a punt at the B-25 when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s upper chest before the ball arrives. B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45.  The Back Judge drops his flag and reports to the Referee that A88 is charged with interference with the opportunity to catch the kick with targeting, and that A88 is disqualified. The play goes to review by Instant Replay. After review, Replay confirms the target by A88.  Ruling?

I have.  The response, yet again is, "but A kicked the ball".  I keep saying that doesn't matter.  I have won over half the crew.  I really wish I had an AR to it or test key with a similar question.

[Bwest]

So if this wasn't confirmed as TGT, B would have to chose between 15 yards from the spot of the foul or decline the penalty?


And then this
B44 is in position to catch a punt inside B's end zone when A88 launches and drives his shoulder into B44’s chest before the ball arrives. Ball hits A44 and bounces into the field at B-1, where B22 recovers the ball and is tackled at the A-45.

Should we go by the penalty statement of KCI in 6-4-1?

KCI isn't a personal foul. If targeting is overturned then B will decline the KCI penalty since as you pointed out that would put them worse off.

KCI in the end zone is enforced from the touchback spot.

[BlindZebra]

A 4/8 @ A-25 snap. Score A-28, B-27. Timeouts A-1, B-0. :12 4th QTR. B just used their final T.O. to try to get the ball back. A lines up in scrimmage kick formation, the center snaps the ball over punter A13’s head and the ball is rolling at the A-3, where up back A44 muffs the ball to the A-10. To prevent B16 from recovering the ball, A13 intentionally kicks the ball OOB to the A-15. Time runs out during the play.  Ruling?

[Andrew McCarthy]

KCI isn't a personal foul. If targeting is overturned then B will decline the KCI penalty since as you pointed out that would put them worse off.

KCI in the end zone is enforced from the touchback spot.

This is one of those where the National Rules Interpreter made a statement in one of his videos a couple years ago that said a flagrant KCI could be tacked on to the end of the play.  This never appears in the rulebook.

[Kalle]

A 4/8 @ A-25 snap. Score A-28, B-27. Timeouts A-1, B-0. :12 4th QTR. B just used their final T.O. to try to get the ball back. A lines up in scrimmage kick formation, the center snaps the ball over punter A13’s head and the ball is rolling at the A-3, where up back A44 muffs the ball to the A-10. To prevent B16 from recovering the ball, A13 intentionally kicks the ball OOB to the A-15. Time runs out during the play.  Ruling?

Simple 3-and-1 enforcement with the spot of the foul at A-10 and the end of the related run at A-25. Half the distance to the goal line, loss of right to repeat the down. 1st and 10 for team B at A-5, extend the period.

[Bwest]

Simple 3-and-1 enforcement with the spot of the foul at A-10 and the end of the related run at A-25. Half the distance to the goal line, loss of right to repeat the down. 1st and 10 for team B at A-5, extend the period.

You can't extend the period if the foul specifies loss of down.

Tough luck for team B, but the game is over.

[Legacy Zebra]

You can't extend the period if the foul specifies loss of down.

I would agree with this with one exception. This only applies if the foul is by the team in possession. Team A is trailing by 4 points and has 4th and goal at the B-6. A1 runs to the B-4 where he is hit and fumbles. B99, in an attempt to prevent A from recovering the loose ball, kicks the ball at the B-3 and it rolls out of bounds at the B-5. Since the foul was by the team not in possession, you can extend the period. Penalize B half the distance from the basic spot (3 and 1), replay 4th down from the B-2.

[Bwest]

I would agree with this with one exception. This only applies if the foul is by the team in possession. Team A is trailing by 4 points and has 4th and goal at the B-6. A1 runs to the B-4 where he is hit and fumbles. B99, in an attempt to prevent A from recovering the loose ball, kicks the ball at the B-3 and it rolls out of bounds at the B-5. Since the foul was by the team not in possession, you can extend the period. Penalize B half the distance from the basic spot (3 and 1), replay 4th down from the B-2.

Well right, but in this case the illegally kicking foul does not specify loss of down (illegally kicking is only LOD if by team A).

I'm having a hard time thinking of example to illustrate the point you are trying to make, but I do see your point.

[Kalle]

You can't extend the period if the foul specifies loss of down.

Tough luck for team B, but the game is over.

Yup, exactly. Rom has a rule change request on this, not surprisingly, but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen.

[Legacy Zebra]

Well right, but in this case the illegally kicking foul does not specify loss of down (illegally kicking is only LOD if by team A).

True. How about this:

Tie game with time running out. Team A's pass is intercepted by B1. At the A-20 he is hit and fumbles the ball. While the ball is loose, A1 kicks the ball to prevent B from recovering it and it rolls out of bounds at the A-16. Although the penalty statement for illegal kicking includes loss of down for fouls by Team A, this would not end the period since Team A was not in possession at the time of the foul. Team B would get an untimed down from the A-10.

[BlindZebra]

True. How about this:

Tie game with time running out. Team A's pass is intercepted by B1. At the A-20 he is hit and fumbles the ball. While the ball is loose, A1 kicks the ball to prevent B from recovering it and it rolls out of bounds at the A-16. Although the penalty statement for illegal kicking includes loss of down for fouls by Team A, this would not end the period since Team A was not in possession at the time of the foul. Team B would get an untimed down from the A-10.

Agree because A was no longer in possession.  But in the original play, even though it is a loose ball, A is still in possession because they have "Team Possession."  Now had had the ball crossed the neutral zone or B gained possession, then we could extend the period since it would no longer carry a loss of down.  But because neither of that happened means it is a tough loss for B with or without accepting the penalty.  Have fun explaining that to the B coach...

[Legacy Zebra]

Agreed.

Have fun explaining that to the B coach...

Many coaches (and fans) think extending the period only applies to fouls by the defense anyway. You might not even get much of a complaint in this situation. For instance, this play from a game a couple years ago. Team A trails by 2 with 5 seconds left in the game. A1 runs for a touchdown as time expires. During the run, A55 holds at the B-20. Team B's coach was adamant that they could accept the penalty and end the game. We told him that he was half right. He would most definitely want to accept the penalty so that the TD wouldn't count, but, because of the accepted penalty, Team A would be given an untimed down from the B-30. He had no clue that a foul on the offense could extend the period. In hindsight, the untimed down probably should have been from B-15...

[BlindZebra]

A3/G @ B-6.  Team A trails 34-31 with :09 remaining in the 4th quarter.  Each team has one timeout.  A34 takes a hand-off and runs to the B-4 where he fumbles the ball. B35 recovers the fumble at the B-2 and runs to the B-20 where A88 tackles him by the facemask.  During B35’s run, B56 blocks A75 low, from the front, in the Team B end zone.  Time expires during the down.  Ruling?

[Legacy Zebra]

Team B has two options, neither very appealing but one more so than the other.

Since Team B got the ball with clean hands, the first option is to offset the fouls and replay 3rd and goal as an untimed down. Probably not gonna happen. The second is to decline the FMM foul and enforce the BBW. Since it is in the end zone, by rule it's a safety. Since this is an accepted live ball foul, there will be an untimed down. Team B must free kick from their own 20 yard line.

Like the other play, it may not be what they want, but it is what it is. Hopefully they just knock it off the tee and fall on it. That would kill it immediately and the game would end since illegal touching is a violation, not a foul.

[BlindZebra]

Team B has two options, neither very appealing but one more so than the other.

Since Team B got the ball with clean hands, the first option is to offset the fouls and replay 3rd and goal as an untimed down. Probably not gonna happen. The second is to decline the FMM foul and enforce the BBW. Since it is in the end zone, by rule it's a safety. Since this is an accepted live ball foul, there will be an untimed down. Team B must free kick from their own 20 yard line.

Like the other play, it may not be what they want, but it is what it is. Hopefully they just knock it off the tee and fall on it. That would kill it immediately and the game would end since illegal touching is a violation, not a foul.

Yeah I'll agree with that.

3/G @ B-10. Score is A13-B14. Clock reads 0:15 in the 4th qtr. No time-outs remain for either team. A5's FG attempt is blocked and the loose ball is recovered at the B-11 by A77 who runs to the B-2 before being tackled. When A77 hits the ground his helmet comes off. The clock reads 0:02 at the end of the play.

[Legacy Zebra]

4th and goal at the B-2. A77 has to leave for one play. No 10 second runoff since the clock stops for a legal kick down. Play clock at 25, game clock on the snap.

Follow up question: Take the helmet part out if it. If this play actually happened, odds are that Team B thinks they just won the game. They're probably not going to know that the clock stops on this play. They're going to think that it should keep running since A77 was tackled in bounds. How lenient would you be with team members coming on to the field? To me this feels like a situation where I would just clear the field, make an announcement and move on. Would anybody here flag B for unsportsmanlike conduct?

[Kalle]

To me this feels like a situation where I would just clear the field, make an announcement and move on. Would anybody here flag B for unsportsmanlike conduct?

Definitely no flags. The spirit of the rule does not apply.

[BlindZebra]

Definitely no flags. The spirit of the rule does not apply.

Agree.  "Oh the band is out on the field!!!!"  Same situation I would think.

A 2/10 @ B-20; 0:25 left in game.  Team A trails by 2 and is out of timeouts.  Home team QB A11 is flushed out of the pocket and is tackled at the B23 near the visiting team sideline, but in bounds.  The tackle caused A11's knee brace to be pulled down to his ankle.  The R watches the QB attempt to pull the knee brace back into position, but he cannot get it up.  A11 then falls to the ground as though injured.  The S signals to stop the clock, but the R signals to wind.  The R finally relents and stops the clock at 0:12 as attendants come to assist the QB.  The visiting head coach has watched the actions of A11 and objects vehemently when the R stops the clock; the visiting head coach is screaming that A11 is cheating.  Include clock status it your answer.

[Kalle]

Agree.  "Oh the band is out on the field!!!!"  Same situation I would think.

A 2/10 @ B-20; 0:25 left in game.  Team A trails by 2 and is out of timeouts.  Home team QB A11 is flushed out of the pocket and is tackled at the B23 near the visiting team sideline, but in bounds.  The tackle caused A11's knee brace to be pulled down to his ankle.  The R watches the QB attempt to pull the knee brace back into position, but he cannot get it up.  A11 then falls to the ground as though injured.  The S signals to stop the clock, but the R signals to wind.  The R finally relents and stops the clock at 0:12 as attendants come to assist the QB.  The visiting head coach has watched the actions of A11 and objects vehemently when the R stops the clock; the visiting head coach is screaming that A11 is cheating.  Include clock status it your answer.

I'll tell the visiting HC to take the cheating aspect up with the governing body, it isn't entirely obvious that A11 is not injured. Injury stops the clock, team B takes the ZAP-10, A11 sits out one play. Game clock 0:02, play clock 25, both start on the ready. Good luck scoring with the backup QB.

[robin083]

4th/12 at A7.  The snap hits blocking back A34's chest who is not aligned in the end zone and rolls along the ground.  B67 bats the ball backward from A's 2 yard line.  After being batted, the ball hits B54 on A's 4 and rolls into A's end zone.  A3 picks up the ball and punts.  The punt is blocked and the ball goes out of A's end zone without entering the field of play.

Same scenario only B's bat is forward into A's end zone. A first and 10 at 30, clock on ready?