Play Situations

[TxSkyBolt]

4/9 on the A-45. As the punt is coming down at the B-12, it bounces off the shoulder of A25 (no receiver is in the area - no KCI) and then bounces off the hands of B8 at the B-10. A25 recovers the kick in the end zone. During the kick, B44 pulls A52 to the ground. Result of the play?

Previous spot enforcement, 10 yard penalty, A 1/10 at the B45. 

[dvasques]

I think I understand previous spot enforcement here but I don't think I can explain...

Not PSK because B will not put the ball in play next.
Unless you have the illegal touch spot but for that, A would have to decline the penalty, which they wouldn't.
So A accept the penalty, canceling the illegal touching privilege.

Now you have a TD by A play with a foul by B after after COP?

I think I understand why the only spot left is previous spot but I can't explain it. And if I can't explain it, then I don't know it.

please help...

[Kalle]

Let's break this down:

Team A is in legal possession of the ball in the team B end zone, so the result of the play is a touchdown.

By rule 10-2-5-a-2 the penalty is declined by rule, unless enforcement becomes possible by illegal touching.

The foul is not during a team B possession, so IT does not make enforcement possible (A.R.'s 6-3-2-III-IV).

End result is team B's ball, 1/10 @ B-12.

[Andrew McCarthy]

Play 1

Onside kick attempt from A35. A4's free kick is very high and short. B22 signals for a fair catch and misjudges the ball. The ball goes over his head and hits the ground. A55 muffs the ball on A's 47. The ball is recovered by B85 on A's 43. B22 holds A55 on A's 46 after his signal to keep A55 from recovering the ball.

Play 2

Onside kick from A35. A4's free kick is very high and short. The ball goes over his B22's head and hits the ground. A55 muffs the ball on A's 47. The ball is recovered by B85 on A's 43. B22 holds A55 on A's 46 during the kick to keep A55 from recovering the ball.

[Legacy Zebra]

Let's answer these questions in reverse order.

Play 2: It's a foul during a free kick play, so the basic spot is the previous spot. The foul is by the team not in possession, so it's enforced from the previous spot with a rekick if accepted. Team A will more than likely choose to rekick from the A-45 rather than give Team B the ball at the A-43.

Play 1: It would seem as though it should be the same as above, except that the foul was by a player who gave a fair catch signal and did not touch the ball. That is a foul for illegal block/contact. That foul is specifically enforced from the spot of the foul. So Team A will definitely accept the penalty and Team B will have the ball at the B-39. Can this be enforced as in the other play for just the hold? I don't know for sure, but I would say no. While both AR's deal with scrimmage kicks rather than a free kick, AR 6-5-4-II only mentions the 15 yard penalty for the illegal block and not the penalty for illegal use of the hands.

[Morningrise]

4/9 on the A-45. As the punt is coming down at the B-12, it bounces off the shoulder of A25 (no receiver is in the area - no KCI) and then bounces off the hands of B8 at the B-10. A25 recovers the kick in the end zone. During the kick, B44 pulls A52 to the ground. Result of the play?

The foul is not during a team B possession, so IT does not make enforcement possible (A.R.'s 6-3-2-III-IV).

Must the foul really be during Team B's running play to be enforceable?

My tentative understanding had been, the foul must happen during any play besides a running play that scores the touchdown. That is, if we have an enforcement spot, then we can use it. The only time we don't have an enforcement spot is if there's no end of the run because it's a touchdown.

Here are six scenarios. The ARs only cover the last two. I had thought the other four were all enforceable penalties, but are they?

A illegally touches B's punt. B recovers the punt but fumbles. A recovers the fumble and runs for a touchdown.
a) B is offside.  Enforceable at previous spot?
b) B holds before the kick. Enforceable at previous spot?
c) B runs into the kicker. Enforceable at previous spot?
d) B holds during the kick. Enforceable at previous spot (instead of PSK)?
e) B holds during B's running play. AR 6-3-2-IV. Enforceable at basic spot, B's ball.
f) B holds during A's running play. AR 6-3-1-III. Not enforceable. Illegal touching accepted.

[Morningrise]

Play 1: It would seem as though it should be the same as above, except that the foul was by a player who gave a fair catch signal and did not touch the ball. That is a foul for illegal block/contact. That foul is specifically enforced from the spot of the foul. So Team A will definitely accept the penalty and Team B will have the ball at the B-39. Can this be enforced as in the other play for just the hold? I don't know for sure, but I would say no. While both AR's deal with scrimmage kicks rather than a free kick, AR 6-5-4-II only mentions the 15 yard penalty for the illegal block and not the penalty for illegal use of the hands.

I would make an executive decision to characterize this conduct as two kinds of fouls at once, allowing Team A to enforce the penalty according to either. Just like when you have DPI that is also a PF; Team A gets the more advantageous of the enforcements. That principle is explicitly stated in 7-3-9-e. So I would argue the same principle should apply whenever conduct falls afoul of two separate rules.

[BlindZebra]

Must the foul really be during Team B's running play to be enforceable?

So what are you asking?  Could we have enforced this penalty at the PSK spot?

[Morningrise]

So what are you asking?  Could we have enforced this penalty at the PSK spot?

No, because it doesn't meet the requirements of PSK (Team A would next put the ball into play), so the basic spot reverts to the previous spot. Can we enforce it from there, though?

[Kalle]

My tentative understanding had been, the foul must happen during any play besides a running play that scores the touchdown. That is, if we have an enforcement spot, then we can use it. The only time we don't have an enforcement spot is if there's no end of the run because it's a touchdown.

I think this is actually a better understanding than mine.

[dvasques]

Must the foul really be during Team B's running play to be enforceable?

My tentative understanding had been, the foul must happen during any play besides a running play that scores the touchdown. That is, if we have an enforcement spot, then we can use it. The only time we don't have an enforcement spot is if there's no end of the run because it's a touchdown.

so it's basic 10-2-4-a because we have a foul during a kick and we have no running play that ends in touchdown?

[Kalle]

so it's basic 10-2-4-a because we have a foul during a kick and we have no running play that ends in touchdown?

Assuming Morningrise's interpretation is correct, then no, it is not a 10-2-4 foul as the foul is by team B. As it is not a PSK foul, the only option is to enforce from the previous spot, 10-2-2-4-a.

[dvasques]

that's what you get for reading and writing at 3am...

I meant 10-2-2-4-a - foul during a kick play that's not PSK

thanks Kalle

[Andrew McCarthy]

I would make an executive decision to characterize this conduct as two kinds of fouls at once, allowing Team A to enforce the penalty according to either. Just like when you have DPI that is also a PF; Team A gets the more advantageous of the enforcements. That principle is explicitly stated in 7-3-9-e. So I would argue the same principle should apply whenever conduct falls afoul of two separate rules.

I would tend to agree.  Team B should not avoid a second attempt at an onside kick just because their player made a signal before he held.

[BlindZebra]

Well, it is a tad bit early...but the 2016 season will approach quicker than you think.  Here is the thread that we can post play situations as they come to mind to try understand them more as well as trump others!  At any rate, feel free to share as you study up and take quizzes and tests.  We shall all benefit from whatever come up here.

A 1/G @ B8.  QB A12 surveys the field for an open receiver in his attempt to pass and has difficultly finding one so he rolls out to his left.  Trying to get to the pylon he dives at the B3 and reaches the ball out to touch the pylon.  Just before the ball can make contact with the pylon, linebacker B35 kicks the pylon away from A12's reach as he makes contact with airborne A12.  When B35 contacts A12 at the B .5, A12 loses control of the ball and the play ends OOB.  Ruling?

[Kalle]

A 1/G @ B8.  QB A12 surveys the field for an open receiver in his attempt to pass and has difficultly finding one so he rolls out to his left.  Trying to get to the pylon he dives at the B3 and reaches the ball out to touch the pylon.  Just before the ball can make contact with the pylon, linebacker B35 kicks the pylon away from A12's reach as he makes contact with airborne A12.  When B35 contacts A12 at the B .5, A12 loses control of the ball and the play ends OOB.  Ruling?

A 2/G at whereever the ball crossed the sideline, unless the ball crossed the sideline in the end zone after the fumble, in which case it is B 1/10 @ B-20. 4-2-4-d-exception, 8-2-1-a and 8-6-1-a.

[ajv]

Here's one and an alternative that came up at a study session this week. (IFAF rules but it's the same in this case I think.)

1st & 10 @ A-32. Quarterback A1 fakes a hand off, rolls to the right and sets up to pass at the A-26 outside the tackle box. As A1 pulls the ball back to pass, B90 hits his arm and the QB's hand goes forward without the ball. The ball flys forward in the air past the neutral zone where it is controlled at the A-34 by linebacker B55 while he is airborne. As B55 lands he loses control and the ball squirts back across the neutral zone. A1 recovers the ball at the A-31 and immediately throws the ball into the ground. The ball hits the ground at the A-32.5. There is no eligible Team A receiver nearby.

Alternative #1. A1 controls the ball at the A-31 while he himself is airborne but before he lands he throws the ball into the ground.

[Legacy Zebra]

Assuming the QB's hand never moves forward, the first one is a fumble recovered by A1 with a foul for intentional grounding. The foul has nothing to do with an eligible receiver, but  rather that A1 threw the ball directly into the ground after it had already touched the ground as well as not immediately after controlling the snap. Loss of down at the spot of the foul.

The second one is still a fumble, but is a foul for illegal batting if A1 "throws" the ball forward the second time. Until A1 comes down o the ground and completes the recovery, it's still a fumble.

It's important to remember that while A1 is standing and in position to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any forward movement starts a forward pass, no matter what happens after contact. So the first scenario would just be an incomplete pass once the ball hit the ground after B55 loses control since you said A1 recovered it rather than catching it. If he had caught the pass after B55 lost control, you'd have a foul for an illegal forward pass since that would be the second forward pass of the down.

[#92]

But he didn't have the ball in possession anymore.

When a team a player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm with the ball firmly in his control starts the forward pass. If a team b player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-2-I).

So it is a fumble, not a forward pass, as "QB's hand goes forward without the ball".

[Legacy Zebra]

I guess I wasn't as clear as I meant to be in my first response. If the passer's hand never moves forward BEFORE CONTACT FROM B90, it is a fumble. Any forward movement BEFORE CONTACT FROM B90 makes it a forward pass.

The second set of scenarios I presented were meant to be a separate discussion from my answers to the original question.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

1st & 10 @ A-32. Quarterback A1 fakes a hand off, rolls to the right and sets up to pass at the A-26 outside the tackle box. As A1 pulls the ball back to pass, B90 hits his arm and the QB's hand goes forward without the ball. The ball flys forward in the air past the neutral zone where it is controlled at the A-34 by linebacker B55 while he is airborne. As B55 lands he loses control and the ball squirts back across the neutral zone. A1 recovers the ball at the A-31 and immediately throws the ball into the ground. The ball hits the ground at the A-32.5. There is no eligible Team A receiver nearby.

Alternative #1. A1 controls the ball at the A-31 while he himself is airborne but before he lands he throws the ball into the ground.

I'm not an NCAA guy - in NFHS this is easier since we don't have to worry about tackle boxes (are we going fishing?) and suchlike... but let me give this a shot anyway 'cause it looks like fun.

First question: Was there a change of possession on this play? It sounds to me like the set-up is intended for the answer to be "no" - despite the fact that this is a fumble and not a pass, I believe the usual catch rules apply, which means that there if the ball pops out as he hits the ground, there is no possession.

Next question: Can the QB make a legal pass AT ALL in this situation? Looks like yes - while the ball has crossed the NZ, the passer's body has not.

Finally: Does the "outside the tackle box" exception apply? By letter or the rule, yes. I believe there was previous discussion about official(?) interpretations of the "player who controls the snap or resulting backwards pass" clause to mean that that player effectively only gets one shot - if it gets knocked out of his hands and he recovers, he can't use that exception anymore. But absent some sort of official guidance like that, then I would say the exception applies and it's not IG.

Result: Incomplete pass. Next down.

Postscript: I assume that the ball landing half a yard past the LOS is intended to be beyond the neutral zone since the ball is a few inches short of half a yard long.

Alternative #1: "Passing the ball is throwing it." No changes here.

[BlindZebra]

1st & 10 @ A-32. Quarterback A1 fakes a hand off, rolls to the right and sets up to pass at the A-26 outside the tackle box. As A1 pulls the ball back to pass, B90 hits his arm and the QB's hand goes forward without the ball. The ball flys forward in the air past the neutral zone where it is controlled at the A-34 by linebacker B55 while he is airborne. As B55 lands he loses control and the ball squirts back across the neutral zone. A1 recovers the ball at the A-31 and immediately throws the ball into the ground. The ball hits the ground at the A-32.5. There is no eligible Team A receiver nearby.

Alternative #1. A1 controls the ball at the A-31 while he himself is airborne but before he lands he throws the ball into the ground.

In the first part, I've got an empty hand making it a fumble.  Since B is airborne, the catch process applies to him and he does not maintain possession keeping the status still a fumble.  While A1 was the one to control the snap, he gave up the right to ground it because it has struck the ground and it was not immediately after the snap.  My ruling is ING A 2/11 @ A31.

Alternative 1 - I have ING here as well since this grounding was immediately after the snap.  A 2/11 @ A31

[Legacy Zebra]

Alternative 1 - I have ING here as well since this grounding was immediately after the snap.  A 2/11 @ A31

You can't have grounding here because it's still a fumble. A1 was still airborne when he controlled it and then batted it to the ground. All he did was bat (intentionally striking it or intentionally changing its direction with the hand(s) or arm(s)) a fumble. Much like this play was simply a batted forward. Even though the defender "threw" the ball, it would not be an illegal forward pass because the first pass had not ended. And in our play, the status of the ball is still a fumble because nobody has gained possession yet since A1 never came to the ground with it.

[BlindZebra]

You can't have grounding here because it's still a fumble. A1 was still airborne when he controlled it and then batted it to the ground. All he did was bat (intentionally striking it or intentionally changing its direction with the hand(s) or arm(s)) a fumble. Much like this play was simply a batted forward. Even though the defender "threw" the ball, it would not be an illegal forward pass because the first pass had not ended. And in our play, the status of the ball is still a fumble because nobody has gained possession yet since A1 never came to the ground with it.

Thank goodness for the offseason!

[ajv]

I'm not sure that we have an illegal forward pass (at the A-31) in the original paragraph. I don't think we can say A1 is trying to conserve time and the "spike" actually does cross the neutral zone. I understand the convention that a spike straight down triggers 7-3-2-f but in this case the forward pass crosses the neutral zone.