Help with penalty enforcement, 10.4.4 & all-but one.

[refjeff]

 I'm not resurrecting a dead horse just to flog it, but...

I think like most officials I got through last season by adapting the desired rule changes to the all-but-one principle.  (Which I learned 52 years ago.)  A few months ago I dedicated myself to really learning the new 6 basic spots.  All I accomplished was to hopelessly confuse myself.

So, to review, and please correct me if I am wrong.  Using the all-but-one principle, if the enforcement spot is behind the previous spot, the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.  The exceptions to that are listed in 10.4.4.  Those penalties are enforced from the spot of the foul. 

Correct?

Thank you.

[ncwingman]

Yes, that is how I've explained it to people as well.

With the few explicit exceptions listed, you follow the all-but-one principle as you've done forever -- but now the enforcement spot can't be further back than the previous spot.

[refjeff]

Thank you. I'm sure this was discussed while I was away, but...

Why are the illegal participation from the bench and playing without a helmet spot fouls, 9.4.4.b?  I can think of examples of both where the best choice is to decline the penalty.  It seems like those are such that they should never be declined.

[CalhounLJ]

Yes, that is how I've explained it to people as well.

With the few explicit exceptions listed, you follow the all-but-one principle as you've done forever -- but now the enforcement spot can't be further back than the previous spot.

Man, I wish the powers that be had called you before they murdered rule 10. This is about as simple as it can get. And is exactly how I called it last year, and how I will teach it this year. My body finally quit on me, forcing me off the field, but I'm still plugged in and dedicated to helping out where I can. Ya'll have a great year!

[VALJ]

Thank you. I'm sure this was discussed while I was away, but...

Why are the illegal participation from the bench and playing without a helmet spot fouls, 9.4.4.b?  I can think of examples of both where the best choice is to decline the penalty.  It seems like those are such that they should never be declined.

Because the foul actually occurs during the play (when the nonplayer enters the field or when the player missing his helmet continued to participate). The other illegal participation fouls in 9-6-4 are all fouls at (or just before, in 9-6-4-d and e) the snap.

[refjeff]

Yeah I get that, btu why aren't they enforced lake any other live ball foul e.g., holding?

[VALJ]

I don’t have this years rule book handy, but as of last years rule book, they’re basic spot fouls, not previous spot, so they ARE enforced like a holding foul would be.

ART. 4 . . . It is illegal participation: a. When any player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other attendant enters and participates during a down. b. If an injured player is not replaced for at least one down; unless the halftime intermission or overtime intermission occurs. c. To have 12 or more players participating at the snap or free kick. d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick. e. For a player to be lying on the ground to deceive opponents at or immedi- ately before the snap or free kick. f. For a disqualified player to re-enter the game. g. For a player whose helmet comes completely off during a down to continue to participate beyond the immediate action in which the player is engaged. PENALTY: Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4a, g – Illegal participation – (S28) – 15 yards, live- ball, basic spot;

[refjeff]

I don’t have this years rule book handy, but as of last years rule book, they’re basic spot fouls, not previous spot, so they ARE enforced like a holding foul would be.

  Could be, but there are eight different basic spots.  These fouls are in 9.4.4 which says the basic spot is the spot of the foul.  9.4.4 includes intentional grounding and fouls in the end zone and those are enforced from the spot of the foul.

[NVFOA_Ump]

  Could be, but there are eight different basic spots.  These fouls are in 9.4.4 which says the basic spot is the spot of the foul.  9.4.4 includes intentional grounding and fouls in the end zone and those are enforced from the spot of the foul.

10.4.4 not 9.4.4?

[VALJ]

  Could be, but there are eight different basic spots.  These fouls are in 9.4.4 which says the basic spot is the spot of the foul.  9.4.4 includes intentional grounding and fouls in the end zone and those are enforced from the spot of the foul.

The difference is that those two IP fouls have a specific time element, occurring during the play, and a specific spot the foul happens (where the person enters the field, or continues to participate when the helmet comes off).  The other IP fouls happen at (or immediately before) the snap, and the basic spot for a foul for a foul at the snap is the previous stop per 10-4-2-a.

[refjeff]

10.4.4 not 9.4.4?

Oops, yeah 10.4.4.

[bossman72]

Here are some things you can remember.

Use all-but-one for everything.

If the end of the run is behind the LOS, the BASIC spot is the previous spot.

When there is a foul by the offense in the offensive backfield, you have to know whether the foul is previous spot or all but one (spot of foul).
An easy way to remember:
Fouls by the PLAYER are previous spot fouls (any blocking foul or personal foul).
Fouls by or with the BALL are spot fouls (grounding, illegal batting, illegal kicking, illegal forward pass).  The only exception being illegal touching, which is previous spot.

Any foul in the end zone is a safety.

Throw that chart in the garbage.
Here's a doc that I made that will help:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZnNQj7o-fX6lM5I0s3_n2HTD7hBHgegIZI1ZarEtDQ/edit?usp=sharing

[NVFOA_Ump]

Thanks Bossman, We'll borrow that for our training if that's OK?   

[bossman72]

Thanks Bossman, We'll borrow that for our training if that's OK?   

Borrow away!

[refjeff]

Here are some things you can remember.

Use all-but-one for everything.

If the end of the run is behind the LOS, the BASIC spot is the previous spot.

When there is a foul by the offense in the offensive backfield, you have to know whether the foul is previous spot or all but one (spot of foul).
An easy way to remember:
Fouls by the PLAYER are previous spot fouls (any blocking foul or personal foul).
Fouls by or with the BALL are spot fouls (grounding, illegal batting, illegal kicking, illegal forward pass).  The only exception being illegal touching, which is previous spot.

Any foul in the end zone is a safety.

Throw that chart in the garbage.
Here's a doc that I made that will help:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZnNQj7o-fX6lM5I0s3_n2HTD7hBHgegIZI1ZarEtDQ/edit?usp=sharing

Maybe.

Runner A1 advances for a 10 yard gain where he is hit and fumbles.  The fumble rolls forward toward the opponent's goal line 5 more yards where teammate A2 kicks or bats the loose ball OOB to prevent B from recovering the ball.  The basic spot is the end of the related run.10-4-6-c-2.

Runner A1 advances for a 10 yard gain where he is hit and fumbles.  The fumble rolls backward toward his goal line 5 yards where teammate A2 kicks or bats the loose ball OOB to prevent B from recovering the ball.  The basic spot is the spot of the foul 10-4-4-a.

A1 catches a backward pass 6 yards behind the LOS.  He advances 1 yard where he is hit and fumbles.  The ball rolls forward 2 yards toward the LOS where teammate A2 kicks or bats the loose ball (still behind the neutral zone) OOB to prevent B from recovering the ball.  The basic spot is the previous spot  10-4-2-b.

I think.  I could be wrong.

[NVFOA_Ump]

3rd play is spot of the foul.  Per case play 10.4.2 SITUATION A, part b, this play segment was no longer part of a loose ball play.

[bama_stripes]

In Play 2, the basic spot is still the end of the related run.  Since the basic spot is in advance of the previous spot, the enforcement spot is the spot of the foul.

[bossman72]

refjeff, don't confuse basic spot with enforcement spot.  Basic spot is our point of reference (something the editorial committee apparently doesn't understand).  Enforcement spot is where we actually march it off from.

[refjeff]

refjeff, don't confuse basic spot with enforcement spot.  Basic spot is our point of reference (something the editorial committee apparently doesn't understand).  Enforcement spot is where we actually march it off from.

  I understand enforcement spot.  Since the all-but-one principle no longer exists, what tells us when the enforcement spot isn't the basic spot? 

[bama_stripes]

  I understand enforcement spot.  Since the all-but-one principle no longer exists, what tells us when the enforcement spot isn't the basic spot?

ABO very much still exists.  The exceptions are for Team A fouls behind the previous spot or Team A or B fouls when the run ends behind the previous spot.  Otherwise, we use ABO like we always have.

[refjeff]

ABO very much still exists. The exceptions are for Team A fouls behind the previous spot or Team A or B fouls when the run ends behind the previous spot.  Otherwise, we use ABO like we always have.

Not tryign to be a wise guy, but where's it at so I can have the new guys read it?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Not tryign to be a wise guy, but where's it at so I can have the new guys read it?

I believe that we all know that the specific "all but one" wording is no longer in the rulebook but the point being made is that we are still officiating just like it was.  Removing that wording was obviously done by the same person(s) who destroyed Rule 10.  We really need to have people doing a real read and QC of the rules before they get printed and sent to the masses.  The fact that none of the rules originators see a problem that needs to be corrected actually defines the problem.

[sj]

refjeff, don't confuse basic spot with enforcement spot.  Basic spot is our point of reference (something the editorial committee apparently doesn't understand).  Enforcement spot is where we actually march it off from.

On this subject a couple of us were talking about because of the way things are written now, could you actually replace the term "basic spot" everywhere you see it with the term "enforcement spot"? Or would that cause other problems?

[bama_stripes]

Not tryign to be a wise guy, but where's it at so I can have the new guys read it?

Get them a 2022 book.  Then have them learn the 2024 exceptions.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Get them a 2022 book.  Then have them learn the 2024 exceptions.