Author Topic: Keep our minds working...  (Read 9081 times)

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Offline ElvisLives

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Keep our minds working...
« on: March 08, 2019, 08:22:13 AM »
Let's keep our minds working during this "down time."  Here is an easy question:

Can a player of Team A wearing a number 50-79 ever be eligible to touch a legal forward pass?  Explain your answer.

Then, someone else ask a question, and keep this going.

Robert

Online Kalle

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2019, 08:43:19 AM »
Yes, after it has touched a team B player or an official. Or does the touch have to be intentional, as the rules talk about a team player or an official touching the ball?

Another easy one: what is the minimum number of players a team can legally play with?

Online Morningrise

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2019, 09:50:57 AM »
Another easy one: what is the minimum number of players a team can legally play with?

Five on offense (50-79, or else it's an illegal formation), except in a scrimmage kick formation when it's two (snapper and obvious kicker).  Nine on free kicks (4 on either side of the kicker). No lower limit on Team B.

Next question: What's the enforcement if, in extra periods, Team B intercepts a pass, takes it down the field, and Team A stops the touchdown by hauling the ball carrier down by the face mask at the A-4?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2019, 10:17:47 AM »
15 yard penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot which will be the A-25.  Result is 1st and 10,  at the A-12-1/2.

Next Question:  4th down and 16.  Team A is in scrimmage kick formation and immediately after the snap kicker sprints hard right and just after kicking the ball rugby style runs into a stationary B-90 and goes head over heels landing flat on his back.  What do we have?
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Online Morningrise

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2019, 11:45:13 AM »
15 yard penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot which will be the A-25.  Result is 1st and 10,  at the A-12-1/2.

What about 3-1-3-g-1 ?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2019, 12:02:34 PM »
15 yard penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot which will be the A-25.  Result is 1st and 10,  at the A-12-1/2.

Next Question:  4th down and 16.  Team A is in scrimmage kick formation and immediately after the snap kicker sprints hard right and just after kicking the ball rugby style runs into a stationary B-90 and goes head over heels landing flat on his back.  What do we have?

No foul.  Play on.
Robert

MODIFIED 1:15 pm
Let me explain.  No foul, regardless of the kicker's location with respect to the tackle box, because the defender did not run into or rough the kicker.  Although not specifically stated in the rules, a stationary player can not be held responsible for contact between himself and an opponent - not even pass interference.  The kick is legal, a the contact is legal.  We don't know enough about the rest of the down to declare the next possession/down/distance.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 08:54:10 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2019, 02:18:18 PM »
What about 3-1-3-g-1 ?

IMHO an intentional open field "face mask tackle" against a ball carrier whose about to win the game as I would envision described here would qualify as a flagrant PF, but would also agree that it's a judgment call.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 03:20:11 PM by carol1995 »
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2019, 02:57:38 PM »
What about 3-1-3-g-1 ?

IMHO an intentional open field "face mask tackle" against a ball carrier whose about to win the game as I would envision described here would qualify as a flagrant PF, but would also agree that it's a judgment call.

While I can envision a facemask foul so deliberately violent, with malicious intent to cause harm, that would rise to the level of flagrant, it would be very, very rare.  Of course, a flagrant foul requires disqualification, and I just didn't envision such a foul by the original description.  But, it could happen.  In that case, the penalty would be enforced at the succeeding spot (25) for the beginning of the next possession of the extra period (or the first possession of an additional extra period). 1/10 for the intercepting team, 12 1/2 yard line of the opponent.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 03:20:42 PM by carol1995 »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2019, 06:57:57 PM »
Yes, after it has touched a team B player or an official. Or does the touch have to be intentional, as the rules talk about a team player or an official touching the ball?

Another easy one: what is the minimum number of players a team can legally play with?

The touching by a B player or an official need not be intentional.  In fact, touching by an official had better be unintentional!  (Although, if I had a bullet pass from Patrick Mahomes - in his college days - headed right between my eyes, Iím gonna do what I have to do to keep my health.)

Robert

Offline Etref

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2019, 10:43:04 PM »
Five on offense (50-79, or else it's an illegal formation


Have to have at least one in the backfield to receive the snap
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Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2019, 10:59:32 PM »
While it is probably a good idea, there is no legal requirement in the rules to have somebody in position to receive the snap.

As to the flagrant discussion, I'll add what I told my crew in a similar situation a few years ago. Ours was on a horse collar on a try, but the same carryover principle applies and it was still a foul that prevented a score. A flagrant personal foul is not a foul that is extremely obvious or gains an unfair advantage. It is a foul so dangerous that it necessitates disqualification. If you aren't willing to DQ the player for the action, it's not a flagrant foul. Unfortunately, this means there will be times when a safety foul goes unpunished. But that's the rule and the definition. Just because it offends your sensibilities of fairness doesn't make it flagrant.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2019, 06:10:17 AM »
A flagrant personal foul is not a foul that is extremely obvious or gains an unfair advantage ........ .
I would disagree.  The universally accepted definitions of flagrant all include the obvious or extremely obvious component.  The additional component needed to be called flagrant by definition in our rules is " .... illegal physical contact so extreme or deliberate that it places an opponent in danger of catastrophic injury."  If in our judgment the act of "tackling" the ball carrier by the face mask at full speed in the open field is an obvious intentional act then I'm very strongly leaning toward a flagrant PF call and that is 100% within our rules.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 07:14:50 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2019, 08:44:18 AM »
Have to have at least one in the backfield to receive the snap

Not true.  There is no requirement for any backfield players.  The snapper can snap the ball backward, let it leave his hand(s), and then other rules govern who can catch or recover the ball. 
-If all 5 lineman are ineligible (and they would be, in this scenario, since they would be numbered 50-79), none of them could receive a hand-to-hand snap (not really sure how that could happen, anyway). 
-When the ball leaves the snapper's hand, it is a backward pass, and any player of Team A (or B) may catch or recover a backward pass.  How would that happen?  The ball could be snapped high into the air, and one of the linemen could, in theory, turn and run to it and catch it.  It could happen.
-If the backward pass from the snap touches the ground, any player of Team A (or B) may recover it.  Easy to imagine that:  ball is snapped straight back and falls to the ground and is bouncing around several yards behind the NZ, and an A player retreats from the line to recover the ball and attempts to advance (or just falls on it).
-Yes, there is rule regarding a "planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper," and that could come into play.  Snapper snaps the ball backward but lets it fall 'softly' out of his hand, so the ball is just sitting on the ground immediately behind him, so another lineman can move along behind him, recover the ball, and attempt to advance.  By rule, if he is able to advance the ball (fat chance), we could enforce the planned loose ball penalty. My guess is he'll lose yards, and get creamed in the process.

So, is 5 players for Team A (all linemen numbered 50-79) a sound offensive scheme?  Nope.  Legal?  Yep.

Robert

(OK, things may be different for 6-player football, but I'm not an expert in those rules.)

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2019, 02:39:42 PM »
Let's keep 'em coming, and not dwell too long on any one thing.

How about this:

2/5, A-45, 6:00 (1), running.  During the dead-ball period between 1st and 2nd down, A10, A33, and A89 depart the field at their sideline, and A11, A38, and A80 enter the field from their team area as replacements.  A33 stops and sets in the offensive backfield.  A89 takes a position on the left end of the line, stops and sets.  All 10 other A players have stopped and are set as A10, in continuous lateral movement since entering the field of play, passes the middle of the field and is outside the numbers, in the backfield, on the side of the field opposite his team area, where he stops jogging, but is still in the process of setting his feet, but not moving forward, when the ball is snapped.
Ruling:



(Not tricky, but not routine, either.)

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2019, 07:19:48 PM »
This is false start because not all 11 players became set for one second prior to the snap. 2/10, A-40, RFP, 25 PC.

Back to more question-answer rather than a play situation. For defensive holding fouls, what are the criteria necessary for the penalty to carry an automatic first down?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2019, 08:42:23 PM »
This is false start because not all 11 players became set for one second prior to the snap. 2/10, A-40, RFP, 25 PC.


Yeah, thatís what I was going for - an illegal shift that converts to a false start, because the entire team didnít stop for one full second after the ball was ready for play, and before the snap.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 08:45:22 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2019, 09:41:21 AM »
For defensive holding fouls, what are the criteria necessary for the penalty to carry an automatic first down?

A legal forward pass must cross the NZ AND the foul by team B is beyond the NZ prior to pass being touched for the holding call to include an automatic 1st down.

Next question:  4th and 15 at the B-35 yard line. Team A is in scrimmage kick formation.  At the snap the wideout A-80 sprints down field and turns in at about the B-25 while TE A-87 turns out at the B-28 in front of A-80.  Just before A-80 and B-87 cross and while a forward pass is in the air B-21 tackles A-80 drawing a flag for pass interference (flag is down at the B-25) as B-87 catches the pass and is tackled at the B-28. What do we have?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 02:50:20 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2019, 11:17:27 AM »
A legal forward pass must cross the NZ AND the foul by team B is beyond the NZ prior to pass being touched for the holding call to include an automatic 1st down.


Don't forget that the foul must be against an eligible Team A player for the penalty to include a first down for A.  Tackling a tackle (ineligible) illegally gets you 10 yards, but nothing more.

Offline Sonofanump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2019, 03:54:16 PM »
A legal forward pass must cross the NZ AND the foul by team B is beyond the NZ prior to pass being touched for the holding call to include an automatic 1st down.

Next question:  4th and 15 at the B-35 yard line. Team A is in scrimmage kick formation.  At the snap the wideout A-80 sprints down field and turns in at about the B-25 while TE A-87 turns out at the B-28 in front of A-80.  Just before A-80 and B-87 cross and while a forward pass is in the air B-21 tackles A-80 drawing a flag for pass interference (flag is down at the B-25) as B-87 catches the pass and is tackled at the B-28. What do we have?

Is this pass high and deep?  Nevertheless, we have at minimum defensive holding on a legal forward pass.  It will be an automatic first down for A, depending on the judgement of the pass is high and deep is if DPI (15) or DH (10)



1) KO at A-35, ball is at A-43 when A88 blocks B33 at the A-47
2) KO at A-35, ball is at A-47 when A88 blocks B33 at the A-43
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 04:08:37 PM by Sonofanump »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2019, 05:13:48 AM »
1) KO at A-35, ball is at A-43 when A88 blocks B33 at the A-47
2) KO at A-35, ball is at A-47 when A88 blocks B33 at the A-43



1) Assuming that the ball has not been touched by R at the time of the block, Illegal Block (K is not eligible to touch the kick) - Re-kick from the K-30 or 5 yds from the subsequent spot where R has possession.
2) Legal Block

Next Play: 1st & 10 at the A-25.  Team A is in a no back shotgun formation.  DB B-29 is coming on an outside blitz and TE A-81 is 4 yards away from B-29 (lined up in tight formation next to the tackle) quickly steps sideways and moves to his right in a attempt to get on front of the blitzing B-29 just before the snap.  What do we have?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 05:20:32 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2019, 07:04:17 AM »
Next Play: 1st & 10 at the A-25.  Team A is in a no back shotgun formation.  DB B-29 is coming on an outside blitz and TE A-81 is 4 yards away from B-29 (lined up in tight formation next to the tackle) quickly steps sideways and moves to his right in a attempt to get on front of the blitzing B-29 just before the snap.  What do we have?

This could be several things.
-If A81's movement is sudden and looked like the start of the play, false start. Dead-ball foul, 1/15, A-20.
-If A81's movement is not construed as a false start, but he hasn't stopped before the snap, illegal motion.  Live-ball foul, 1/15, A-20, or result of the play.  Only a back may be in motion at the snap, legally.
-If A81's movement is not construed as a false start, but he stops completely (one-second pause not required for a single player moving), nothing.  Play on.
-Or, my wise guy answer, since he was positioned on the left end, he collides with the tackle, who collides with the guard, etc., and, like dominoes, the entire line falls over, and Team A requests a time out.

(By the way, a little nitpicky, but, going back to the Nelson/Adams days, place a dash between the letter and number for yard lines (e.g., A-45), but no dash for player numbers (e.g., A45).  That helps distinguish yard lines from player numbers).

Offline Magician

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2019, 09:03:54 AM »
This could be several things.
-If A81's movement is sudden and looked like the start of the play, false start. Dead-ball foul, 1/15, A-20.
-If A81's movement is not construed as a false start, but he hasn't stopped before the snap, illegal motion.  Live-ball foul, 1/15, A-20, or result of the play.  Only a back may be in motion at the snap, legally.
-If A81's movement is not construed as a false start, but he stops completely (one-second pause not required for a single player moving), nothing.  Play on.
-Or, my wise guy answer, since he was positioned on the left end, he collides with the tackle, who collides with the guard, etc., and, like dominoes, the entire line falls over, and Team A requests a time out.

(By the way, a little nitpicky, but, going back to the Nelson/Adams days, place a dash between the letter and number for yard lines (e.g., A-45), but no dash for player numbers (e.g., A45).  That helps distinguish yard lines from player numbers).
Agree on each of your scenarios. Ends can shift but they can't be in motion at the snap.

A 3rd and 9 at the A-14. A snaps the ball and runs to the A32 where they fumble. B recovers the fumble and runs to the A-4 where he fumbles. The ball hits the pylon. At the snap, A is guilty of an illegal formation. During B's return. B44 blocks A75 in the back at the A-15. Who has choices and what choices do they have?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 04:52:49 PM by Magician »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2019, 02:06:11 PM »
Pure result of the play is a touchback with A next to snap at the A-20.

1. First, if A wants to keep the ball they would have to decline B's penalty (A's option).
2. Since A will be the next to snap the ball the rules seem to say the A penalty could be enforced (B's option), a previous spot enforcement that would leave A with a 3rd down at the A-9.

Next question:  Just after Team A has set with the QB in under the snapper and ready to call signals the nose tackle barks out a single word "formation" call which results in virtually all of team A (except the snapper whose helmet to helmet with the nose tackle) moving.  The ball has not been snapped and we've got 4 flags down for what looks like a false start.  What do we actually have?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 02:33:09 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2019, 04:52:39 PM »
Next question:  Just after Team A has set with the QB in under the snapper and ready to call signals the nose tackle barks out a single word "formation" call which results in virtually all of team A (except the snapper whose helmet to helmet with the nose tackle) moving.  The ball has not been snapped and we've got 4 flags down for what looks like a false start.  What do we actually have?

I'm answering this one because it is a sore subject with me.  I don't give a rats bohunkus what any coach claims about a barked signal being a legal defensive signal.  Baloney.  If the signal is verbal, and called in such a way that causes Team A to react, that is a "disconcerting signal," and is a dead-ball delay-of-game foul.  Yes, they are allowed to make a verbal signal, must it must not be made in a way that disconcerts Team A.  Period.  End of story.

Same with those abrupt movements by d-linemen while Team A is preparing to snap the ball.  No, coach, you can't make a movement like, even if Team A doesn't react, and danged sure if they DO react.  Dead-ball, delay of game.

The problem is that we don't have enough of our guys having the nads to make this call, to put a stop to this practice.  One guy gets away with it, and he tells his coaching buddies that it is legal, and they start doing it.  Then someone does call it, and they go ballistic, like we just stole their favorite pair of sunglasses (off the top of their head during a night game).

Make the call.

 

Offline Magician

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2019, 04:55:18 PM »
Pure result of the play is a touchback with A next to snap at the A-20.

1. First, if A wants to keep the ball they would have to decline B's penalty (A's option).
2. Since A will be the next to snap the ball the rules seem to say the A penalty could be enforced (B's option), a previous spot enforcement that would leave A with a 3rd down at the A-9.

Next question:  Just after Team A has set with the QB in under the snapper and ready to call signals the nose tackle barks out a single word "formation" call which results in virtually all of team A (except the snapper whose helmet to helmet with the nose tackle) moving.  The ball has not been snapped and we've got 4 flags down for what looks like a false start.  What do we actually have?

I will disagree with your answer. There is a question over who has team possession at the end of the down. I say it's team B because they were the last team in possession during the down. Absent any fouls A would put the ball in play on the next down, but I don't believe that applies. For the sake of discussion, let's go with team B in possession. Since they obtained the ball with clean hands they can decline A's foul if they want. They wouldn't do that though because then A would decline B's foul and take the result of the play: touchback 1st and 10 at the A-20. Better field position and a first down. B's other choice would be to accept A's penalty which results in a replay of the down, 3rd and 9 at the A-14. B would choose that option every time.

If you feel A is in team possession at the end of the down, they don't have any options because they fouled  before gaining possession. It's a double foul replay the down at the previous spot. 3rd and 9 at the A-14.

In this case it doesn't matter, but if it was 3rd and goal at the B-8 and this happened, B would likely decline the penalty and move A back to their own 20 even if it's a first down.