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There is so much going on here it makes my head spin. My crew chief would like me to answer. What are your opinions.

GA Ump nailed it. The term “clean hands” doesn’t appear in the rule book, but it’s critical here. If B obtains possession BEFORE they foul, we say the got the ball with clean hands. So they can decline A’s foul and keep the ball. (Note - A can still accept B’s foul.) If B fouls BEFORE they gain possession, they did not get the ball with clean hands, so the double fouls offset.
National Federation Discussion / Re: New Kick Penalty Rule
« Last post by CalhounLJ on Yesterday at 11:27:16 AM »
I feel certain that this has been overlooked and not the intent of this rule, however, the rule reads during a kick 'down'...not during the kick.  Why did they choose the word 'down' in this rule?  With that, it means ANY K foul during the 'entire down', not just the kick part.
So, K punts from the K30. R22 catches punt at R20, runs to the R30, where K80 commits a facemask penalty and causes R22 to fumble.  R44 recovers the fumble and runs to the 50 where he is tackled. 
Because K fouled during the 'down', this foul can be tacked on from the succeeding spot, 50yd, and R will get the ball at the K35.

This cannot be the intent, but is exactly what the rule reads currently.  Has there been any word to the contrary?

This was the intent of the rule which is why the rule reads the way it does.  Restated, the rule is in effect for ANY Live Ball K foul during the down.
Yes, in your play the succeeding spot is the 50. Enforce the FM foul from there.
Note that in your play if R22 had been Facemasked but not fumbled,  continued on, and returned the ball to the 50, the FM penalty would also be enforced from the 50.

What am I missing???

Can we go back to this play for just a minute. Just to make sure I understand. Does this mean that during a kicking down, the basic spot has been changed because of this new exception? Before this exception, we would go back to where R22 fumbled and make that the basic spot of enforcement, because that was the end of the run which was related to the foul. But now, what I'm gathering is that for K fouls during a kick down, that is no longer the case. Now, the end of the related run in this scenario would have no significance, because K fouled during a kicking down and the exception states that foul is enforced from the succeeding spot. Is that what we are saying?
No options here!
All penalties offset, Replay down!
National Federation Discussion / Re: New Kick Penalty Rule
« Last post by KWH on July 20, 2018, 07:47:48 PM »
I think some may be trying to over think this new rule.
Perhaps a different simple way to remember this new rule is:

For 10-4-2c to be in effect the following must occur:
1) K must legally kick the football, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement that the ball cross any line, in fact, in NFHS, it could be blocked for negative yardage) AND,
2) K must commit ANY live ball foul AT ANY TIME during the down, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement of when or even where the K foul occurs), AND
3) K is NOT next to put the ball in play!
If all three of these criteria are met,  the offended team, R, may choose succeeding spot enforcement with one exception, if R scores a Touchdown.
If R scores a Touchdown, the succeeding spot is the TRY, UNLESS the criteria of 8-2-3 has been met ( ie; the K foul occurred after the final change of possession);
If 8-2-3 applies, R may choose enforcement of the penalty on the TRY or the Subsequent Kickoff.

So... all the options from 2017 are still intact, however, in addition, we can now offer up the "tack-on option" as well.

I hope this helps... pi1eOn
National Football League / Re: Defensive strategy at end of game
« Last post by ElvisLives on July 20, 2018, 06:41:50 PM »
I have yet to see the exact wording of the NCAA ruling.

Not a change in the rule language, but new entries added to the ARs.  New ARs 9-2-3-II and III cover blatant USC fouls to consume time by either the defense or the offense, respectively.  In either case, the fouls (holding, dpi, whatever) get converted to UNS fouls, and the clock is reset to the time on the clock at the snap for the down in which the foul(s) occurred.  The UNSs get added to each fouling player’s UNS “counters,” with DQ for any player for whom it is their second UNS.  But just one 15 yard penalty.

Should stop that type of incredibly unsportsmanlike action.  But, you never know...
National Federation Discussion / Re: New Kick Penalty Rule
« Last post by CalhounLJ on July 20, 2018, 04:46:49 PM »
I agree that cases like this need to be addressed officially, but I also believe that this new exception was not meant to disrupt the basic philosophy of penalty administration. In this case R would need to decline the holding foul to keep the Td, because it is impossible to have both. The ironclad rule regarding fouls in the EZ dictate that there is no distance awarded with this foul, the penalty IS the safety. To my knowledge it is still impossible to “tack on” two points to a TD.

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National Federation Discussion / Re: New Kick Penalty Rule
« Last post by Curious on July 20, 2018, 04:32:32 PM »
For those of you without your case book handy -- K is punting from their own 4. During the kick, K2 holds in K's end zone. R returns the punt for a TD. Previous options -- accept the penalty and the safety or decline the penalty and take the touchdown.

I believe this is correct that the new rule allows R to have the enforcement spot as the succeeding spot. It is a foul by K during a scrimmage kick down and R is the next to put the ball in play.

Furthermore, the way 8-2-3 is written, R must take the penalty on the try (and not on the ensuing kickoff) if they choose the succeeding spot enforcement as the foul occurred prior to the change of possession (i.e., 8-2-3 doesn't actually apply).

If R accepts the holding foul (occurring in the EZ) the effect is a safety as the enforcement spot is really not the previous spot - it's the spot of the foul.  Therefore K would be the next to snap the ball (free kick back to R) which, by rule, would eliminate R's option to tack it on. 8-2-3 requires that, during a TD scoring play, if the opponent of the scoring team fouls, the foul must occur prior to the COP - which in this play, is not the case. What am I missing? :!#
National Federation Discussion / Re: Punt play and clock status
« Last post by GA Umpire on July 20, 2018, 03:03:59 PM »
PSK does not apply as the foul on R was behind the LOS.  Offsetting fouls, replay the down and clock starts on the ready.

What he said.
3/10, B-30. B79 is flagged for holding A22 who is trying to come out of the backfield to run a pass route. B22 intercepts a forward pass in his end zone. As B22 is trying to get out of the end zone, A33 grasps and twist his facemask. B22 then fumbles the ball from the end zone into the field of play. During the fumble B33 blocks A22 below the waist at the B-12. B44 recovers the ball at the B-5.
There is so much going on here it makes my head spin. My crew chief would like me to answer. What are your opinions.
Since Team B gained possession without "clean hands", my answer is "A".  3rd and 10 from the previous spot, the B30.
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